Scripture Text (NRSV)
7:21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the
kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.
7:22 On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in
your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many deeds of power in your
name?'
7:23 Then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; go away from me, you
evildoers.'
7:24 "Everyone then who hears these words of mine and acts on them
will be like a wise man who built his house on rock.
7:25 The rain fell, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that
house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on rock.
7:26 And everyone who hears these words of mine and does not act on them
will be like a foolish man who built his house on sand.
7:27 The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat
against that house, and it fell--and great was its fall!"
7:28 Now when Jesus had finished saying these things, the crowds were
astounded at his teaching,
7:29 for he taught them as one having authority, and not as their scribes.
Comments:
I have a strange, almost irreverent question, could the little children's tale, The Three Little Pigs" be based on this passage?
Just wondering a little early,
tom in ga
maybe but then there is the true story of the three little pigs told by the wolfs point of view! Nancy-WI
Messenger of Peace
Messenger of Peace
Only those who hears and acts on the words of God will be able to enter into the Kingdom of God. Those who have based their faith on a solid foundation can stand the storms of life when they come.
Rains, floods, and winds come to all of us. They beat against the heart and soul, but if our faith is founded on Jesus Christ and in Jesus Christ we will stand. If not then we will fall. A person who does not stand on their faith has nothing to stand on. A person who kneels before God in prayer can stand before any human situation.
"for he taught them as one having authority", this line really catches my attention. What is our authority? That of Jesus or the Scribes? Do we today give God authority in our lives. Nancy-WI
v.22 - "Didn't WE DO all the things required of us to be saved?" WE did this, and WE did that - We were good people, didn't purposely try to hurt anyone. Lived a good life. We didn't need to go to church to that. You mean it wasn't about being good people? It was believing and REALLY having faith in you? Making you our "rock and salvation"?
OH! The beginnings of an idea ~ Reverend KJ
See D. Bonhoeffer's Costly and Cheap Grace in "The Cost of Discipleship"
tom in ga
The Parable of the Two Builders reflects the wisdom says of the Hebrew Scriptures:
Who are wise? Who are foolish?
It raises the simple question of how shall we follow Jesus as his disciples: By knowing his will or doing his will, etc.
tom in ga
So what does it mean to build my house on a foundation of rock? Already my house is built on sand, when the winds and rains come I feel the foundation decaying from underneath me, I am loosing ground - how do I begin to rebuild? Where do I turn to for conversion/renovation? I need a new security and strength that only the rock will give me. I look at my congregation, no one seems to know where to find the rocks, everyone is like myself ... sand castles seem to be very popular no matter the weather or if we live in California. No one listens to God, no one acts obediently. We have lost our way, we want to be blessed, but we end up being cursed! Is there anyone out there that understands this dilemma? The faith community proclaims that it is built upon the ROCK but we are unable to deal with anger, dissension, disunity, discord, death, destruction, lack of commitment, etc. Where is our faith? How do we listen to God? Where do I find him in the competing voices of our day?
tom in ga
I am a United Methodist who will be going to annual conference soon, and in thinking about the issues that will be discussed and voted on, this text jumps out at me -- not everyone who says "Lord, Lord," will enter the kingdom (and no, I have never thought annual conference or UMC were interchangeable terms for the kingdom, though they are not mutually exclusive, either.)
The ones who will argue the longest and loudest will be the ones who insist that they are the ones who prophesy in Jesus' name, and cast out demons, and do many deeds of power -- though they may indeed be the ones Jesus calls "evildoers" as their positions seem to be rooted more in personal glory and gain than in a humble submitting to the will of God revealed in Jesus Christ.
So what's a person to do? Do we build on the shifting sands of public opinion and persuasion (a lot of fun for those having their day at the beach!) or do we build upon the Rock of our salvation? And won't the crowds be astounded if we act with authority, and not as the scribes!
OLAS
On what else can we build upon, but the grace of God? Paul seemed to understand profoundly that we are all sinners who can never be righteous on our own. Try as we might, we fail. Only God's blessing of grace allows us freedom from our weaknesses to keep the commandments and to truly know what a blessing they are for us. I will be starting with Paul's words in Romans as the foundation for the sermon. Once we've experienced that grace, we quit trying to prove our worthiness or correctness and allow God to work through our humble attempts to love. GB in MI
The opening of this reading harks back to the concern I shared last week. We don't like the four-lettered word "Obey". We don't teach it and we don't expect it. Jesus said,"...teachig them to obey..."
This text seems to be sayig the same thing. Not everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord will be save, but those who DO the will of God.
Maybe if we obeyed Jesus, we wouldn't have centuries of church scandals, maybe if we obey Jesus 17 million people won't die (every year) without hearing Gospel. Maybe if we obeyed Jesus, there would be people who live across the road from our churches or homes who have no idea what Christianity is about. I read this week a survey that said that 97% of the world's population has heard of Coca Cola. How come the church isn't any where near that successful with the Great Commission.
Last week people said that we don't like to obey anymore (post-sixties). Perhaps the decline of Christianity is due to our neglect and desire to not offend with the Truth.
I worry about the church of the West.
Pr.del in Ia
Amen, Ia... Like the coke thing...think I'll borrow it...The Coke Motto "The Real Thing" A soda real thing? CHrist is real thing.... do you all know the song to that title...instead of Coke is...say Christ is... Christ is- the real thing; In the back of your mind- Christ is; Have Him anytime; Christ is real thing... Or I'd like to teach the world to sing in perfect harmony...I'd like to share Christ with the world- to keep them company...He's the real thing....Time after Time...In the Back of your Mind...Christ is the real thing..... Ladypreacher in OHIO
Oh,another quote for your sermons next week! Jack Nicholas in a few good men, " YOU CAN't HANDLE THE TRUTH!" As you talk about the sixties here...has the Western way of thinking become that...I am too young for the sixties... here "BABY BUSTER" generation When the 20 somethings phrase was first coined...I was 20 something...I Like to say I am upper end- GEN Xer!!!! But what about Generation NEXT! (LOL THAT's PEPSI I HAVE SODA FIXATION TONIGHT) Will Generation Next handle the truth...Ladypreacher in OHIO
Help with understanding:
Does this parable really mean that as long as I depend on myself, my own good works, my own life-style, my own understanding of right and wrong (thanks to the Fall) that I have built my house on sand. BUT
If I have surrendered my life, given up my sense of controled, turned my life over to Christ our God, released my sense of knowing that I will have built my house of rock.
If this is true, how do we do this? I procrastinate enough, I don't need anyone suggesting that I will never get around to being responsible! How do I build my house on rock. I don't think Coke will do the trick (though I do own a few shares).
I am really desperate about this whole issue.
tom in ga
P.S. On Trinity Sunday I thought I would try to engage my congregation in a discussion on the Trinity, guess what no one had an idea about the Trinity or its meaning. What does that suggest about the preaching at this parish for over a hundred and fifty years - or does anyone really care?????
Ladypreacher in Oh,
Please use the coke thing, I used it for the Great Commission and it really got people's attetion. Before the service began, I sat a bottle of Coke on the pulpit where all could see is right from the start. Our prelude music before the "official" begginning of the service was the old song "I'd like to teach the world to sing..." (the version before coke changed it) but may in the congregation recogized it.
"Coca-cola is one product that has far outgrown its humble beginnings. In 1886, Dr. John Pemberton first introduced Coca-Cola in Atlanta, Georgia. The pharmacist concocted a caramel-colored syrup in a three-legged brass kettle in his backyard. He first "distributed" Coca-Cola by carrying it in a jug down the street to Jacobs a local pharmacy.
"After little more than 100 years, surveys show that 97% of the world has heard of coca-cola. Seventy-two percent of the world has seen a can of coca-cola. Fifty one percent of the world has tasted a can of coca-cola. All due to the fact that the company made a commitment years ago that every one on the planet would have a taste of their soft drink.
"We should stand up and take note here! Ninety-seven percent of the world has heard of this sugar and water concoction while 1.7 billion people worldwide have no access to the good news of Jesus Christ! And it is estimated that 17 million people die every year without having heard the name of Jesus"!
OFF TOPIC EPISCOPAL INQUIRY
Hey, Gang! There's a humorous list of the "operative beliefs" of Episcopalians ... it includes such items as
"Any job worth doing is enhanced by an esoteric name"
"Episcopalians are the only people God trusts to take the summer off"
and so forth
I have lost my copy and can't seem to find it on the web....
Does anyone else have it?
Please send it to me at rector@stfrancis-ks.org
Thanks, Eric in KS
tom in ga wrote: "On Trinity Sunday I thought I would try to engage my congregation in a discussion on the Trinity, guess what no one had an idea about the Trinity or its meaning. What does that suggest about the preaching at this parish for over a hundred and fifty years - or does anyone really care?????"
I almost tried that ... but since I'm in an Episcopal congregation (like you, tom) I thought better of it.
But your question reminds me of the public opinion poll take to determine whether major problem in our society is ignorance or apathy.... the most common reply: "I don't know and I don't care."
Blessings, Eric in KS
It has been a long time since I contributed anything to this conversation -- although I have enjoyed reading the suggestions by so many of you. To assuage my growing feelings of guilt, I thought I might add just an insight I had as I was reading the contributions already submitted. It is true that most of us struggle with the concept of obedience. We really do not like to be told to obey anyone. But last January, as I was doing a sermon on baptism using the Lord's baptism as a model, I stumbled across a definition of faith that has come to hold a special meaning to me. I do not recall if I read it somewhere, or if it was just one of those "God-moments" when you actually learn directly from the Holy Spirit's guidance. Anyway the definition of faith that I discovered is that FAITH IS LIVING AS IF GOD'S PROMISES WERE TRUE! That puts faith into doing and living, rather than just talking about believing. As Bonhoeffer might say it puts us in a position where faith becomes possible. It also removes all considerations of obedience, but the same actions get done. That is, my actions are based on God's grace & love & promises, rather than obedience based on some punishment )or withholding of a reward). It seems to me this is what Jesus is talking about when He talks of the one who hears His words and ACTS on them. Just some thoughts early in the week. Hope it helps someone. Art in KY
It has been a long time since I contributed anything to this conversation -- although I have enjoyed reading the suggestions by so many of you. To assuage my growing feelings of guilt, I thought I might add just an insight I had as I was reading the contributions already submitted. It is true that most of us struggle with the concept of obedience. We really do not like to be told to obey anyone. But last January, as I was doing a sermon on baptism using the Lord's baptism as a model, I stumbled across a definition of faith that has come to hold a special meaning to me. I do not recall if I read it somewhere, or if it was just one of those "God-moments" when you actually learn directly from the Holy Spirit's guidance. Anyway the definition of faith that I discovered is that FAITH IS LIVING AS IF GOD'S PROMISES WERE TRUE! That puts faith into doing and living, rather than just talking about believing. As Bonhoeffer might say it puts us in a position where faith becomes possible. It also removes all considerations of obedience, but the same actions get done. That is, my actions are based on God's grace & love & promises, rather than obedience based on some punishment )or withholding of a reward). It seems to me this is what Jesus is talking about when He talks of the one who hears His words and ACTS on them. Just some thoughts early in the week. Hope it helps someone. Art in KY
Thank you Art,
This is a good week to lay that defination out to the congregation.
Pr.del in IA
I am beginning to think about this reading in light of the works of Thomas Merton on the True and False Self. If we examine this reading through the prism of his work it seems as though we are a mixture of rocks and sand (weeds and wheat).
Created in the image of God, we already are built on a foundation of rock; recreated through the paschal mystery we have received grace through faith.
However, as we seek to live our individual lives, we tend to move further and further away from our true self and embrace a false self which defines itself by our possessions, our education, our denomination, our religious practice, etc.
The task for us dig in the sand long enough until we discover the rock foundation. This can only be done through faith, surrender, and letting go of control.
tom in ga
Eric in KS,
I guess I will never learn. From time to time I have sought to invite the congregation into discussion - Adult Education is not something anyone really participates in here - so it helps to get some reading on where they are.
I am sorry I asked the question regarding the Trinity however - it just meant that I will have to reflect more about how to bring this congregation from ignorance and apathy to wonder and joy. I appreciate very much your thoughtfulness throughout our ongoing discussion on the Sunday readings.
tom in ga
It seems to me that the insight of one of my seminary profs rings true in this passage. "Beware of having faith in your faith." He went on to say that Eve, having faith in her faith, thereby opened the way for Satan to deceive her.
Those who come saying, "Lord, Lord" who have cast demons out and did works of power in the name of Jesus also have that temptation in having faith in their faith - themselves - and not in their constant need of redemption and Jesus' constant offering and work of grace, forgiveness and reconciliation towards us.
Tigger in MN
28 MAY 02
Seems like I really need the help this week--thanks for the early musings. ANd humor... Nicholas is the golfer, I believe that was Jack Nicolson (sp?) who played the USMC General re "Can't handle the truth." I need to maybe do a little deeper exegetical check of the Greek, but it does seem that the outwardly holy ones were claiming their position in the kingdom based on PAST action (did we not (implied... "back then") do many deeds of power..."? I mean Matthew's gospel is the same one (see ch. 25) that separates sheep and goats based on these deeds of social justice. Kind of the same critique of certain holier than thou pharisees who claimed blessings based on biological link to Abraham. Jesus (and moreso, St. Paul, I suppose) pointed out that we though not biologically related, are participants in this kingdom thanks to Christ and responsive discipleship.
Peter in WI
Help! I can't get beyond the grace versus works applications of this passage. -- Not the ones that "SAY"... but the ones that "DO". I'm in the midst of encouraging my congregation to BE this summer ... to allow time for restoration, recreation and stillness. (Since most of my folks seem to be on vacation anyway, it seemed a prudent thing to bring a Godly focus on a vacation season.) So... now, I turn to these opening verses. For here wisdom and in effect salvation are based on hearing and acting... right? I think I will step away from this text and come back tomorrow. Maybe after a restorative nap. RevAmy
After a day off yesterday (aaaahhhh), I'm back at it, starting a series called "Back to BAsics." Part of the reason is just what Tom in GA articulated. I, too, am astounded not only by Jesus' authority but by how long people have been claiming the name, "Christian," to not know some very basic stuff. I get discouraged, too. Yet, could my discouragement not be seen as Tigger's "having faith in (my) faith?"
BTW: I think last week I mentioned "Handel's" "The Creation." CORRECTION: It's Haydn, not Handel. Sorry. I couldn't go back and see if that's what I wrote or not.
Sally in GA
I want some more information here - I am thinking that this passage has something to do with those church folks of the roman times who "transgressed" and denied Christ to save their lives only to show back up the next week in church? Was this passage dealing with the historical problem of folks who only claimed Christ when they were in the company of supporters? revdan
Then again, I still discover things I've been mistaken on. I wonder who's discouraged because of my ignorance and apathy? I don't feel like I'm either one, but I'm sure some think I am ...
Sally in GA
The Reason I think this is a difficult Sunday to preach is because
Matthew's Sermon on the Mount was very primitive ... those in the Way were to go further than the Jews when it came to obedience to the TORAH. Placing this work next to Paul raises some interesting difficulties and hopefully some opportunties.
Romans at righteousness through grace and not works (I really think Matthew is not far away from this point of view) and thus the two readings contradict one another, and heare we are trying to preform a marriage of Palestinian Judiasm and Hellenistic thought.
tom in ga
The Reason I think this is a difficult Sunday to preach is because
Matthew's Sermon on the Mount was very primitive ... those in the Way were to go further than the Jews when it came to obedience to the TORAH. Placing this work next to Paul raises some interesting difficulties and hopefully some opportunties.
Romans at righteousness through grace and not works (I really think Matthew is not far away from this point of view) and thus the two readings contradict one another, and heare we are trying to preform a marriage of Palestinian Judiasm and Hellenistic thought.
tom in ga
The Reason I think this is a difficult Sunday to preach is because
Matthew's Sermon on the Mount was very primitive ... those in the Way were to go further than the Jews when it came to obedience to the TORAH. Placing this work next to Paul raises some interesting difficulties and hopefully some opportunties.
Romans at righteousness through grace and not works (I really think Matthew is not far away from this point of view) and thus the two readings contradict one another, and heare we are trying to preform a marriage of Palestinian Judiasm and Hellenistic thought.
tom in ga
The Reason I think this is a difficult Sunday to preach is because
Matthew's Sermon on the Mount was very primitive ... those in the Way were to go further than the Jews when it came to obedience to the TORAH. Placing this work next to Paul raises some interesting difficulties and hopefully some opportunties.
Romans at righteousness through grace and not works (I really think Matthew is not far away from this point of view) and thus the two readings contradict one another, and heare we are trying to preform a marriage of Palestinian Judiasm and Hellenistic thought.
tom in ga
Anyone can wear phyllacteries (see the Deut. text) on their heads and forearms. It takes Jesus to help us put them on our hearts. and it's a continual and permanent process. If there is an element of grace v. works in this text, then there's an element of internal/external as well. The internal is more than surrender, as I see it; it's an opening up, a convicting, a "weren't-our-hearts-burning-within-us" feeling. This is not to discount the value of outside reminders of who we are and Whom we serve (I carry one of those corny crosses in my pocket); but that any real transformation comes from a circumcision of the heart.
Thus, calling "Lord, Lord" is paradoxically an exclamation of both supplication as a disciple and boldness as a brother or sister. If it were only external, we would only need to submit. And it would only be one-way. This way, we are charged with also "becoming like Christ" or developing a real relationship as in a marriage.
Off to pick up my older girl from finals ...
Sally in GA
For those who would argue universal salvation, Jesus gives us this lesson. Not all will be saved even if they have the right words on their lips. We need to be obedient to His word and His authority.
There are only two ways and two endings to human life as represented by the two foundations of the two builders. There are two ways to respond to Jesus: we either accept and follow Him, or we reject Him and go our own way. What we do with Jesus and His teaching determines our destiny.
Tough text for a tough world. Pastor John in CT
I think I am going to title my sermon "Karaoke Faith." Not everyone who wears skimpy outfits is Britney Spears. Not everyone who sings "Yesterday" is Paul McCartney. Not everyone who pouts and struts is Steven Tyler or Mick Jagger. But there are plenty of people who think it is enough to sing along with a tape/CD, to dress like them, to move like them, to study about them, to be obsessive about them -- thinking that this is enough to truly make them part of Britney's/Paul's/whoever's world. There is a place of "worship" for these people -- the karaoke bar.
In that same way, not everyone who says "Lord, Lord," who knows all the words and verses of Jesus, who knows how to do the moves is necessarily part of the kingdom.
When the "moves" are borrowed, we have come by them too easily, and they can just as easily fail us when the rain falls and the floods come. Our discipleship, to be authentic, has to be built on our relationship with the Rock of Ages -- which is not as easy as doing whatever is popular in the shifting sands of public opinion. The guidance of the saints is helpful, but their guidance is not what saves us. It will be our saving relationship with Jesus Christ that enables us to live as authentic witnesses.
OLAS
The whole faith-vs.-works debate has always struck me as a "straw man" sort of argument....
In the reading from Romans, Paul concludes: "Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law." Doesn't a truly active ("doing") faith entail works -- it is more than merely saying "Lord, Lord" -- it is a faith which does the Law simply because there is no other way to be! The righteousness of the Law is, to the truly faithful, like water to a fish! There is no thinking about doing the right thing, one just does it because that is the way the faithful one IS!
And then there is that "straw epistle" (Luther's term) the Letter of James which correctly sums it all up saying that "faith without works is dead" -- "By my works, I will show you my faith." Or as Jesus put it elsewhere, "By their fruits, you will know them."
Faith-works-works-faith ... it's all part of a package. Can't really have one without the other. (Like soup-and-sandwich, I suppose.)
Blessings, Eric in KS
We stand on a path that is forked, which way do we travel, the way of blessing, a rocky way; or a way of cursing, a smooth sandy way.
We have come forth out of the the Easter Season as a new people, reborn in Christ, we have heard the good news, we have been rescued from sin and death, what now shall we do?
What do we truly embrace? Christianity or Churchianity? Is the outer shell, the social interaction, the goal of our lives? Or is there something more? That invites our full attention, that calls for a deeper commitment, a renewed hope.
How do we live NOW as the people of God? By showing off our power or by simply receving as deeply as possible the grace that has been given to us?
tom in ga
Accepting Jesus
Now this is an interesting concept even for us Christians. It seems to me that as soon as you settle into your new belief in Jesus you are in trouble for you somehow assume that you have some privilege that others do not have ... the gain of Eternal Life. However the new privilege is not Eternal Life (as normally interpreted) but a relationship with Christ now in his mission and in his suffering.
tom in ga
There is an evangelical church in my area that has on its prayer concern wall the statement that "we pray for all the members of traditional churches who think they know Christ." I know I am being defensive (as a pastor of one such church), but I can't helped wondering if this arrogance isn't part of what Jesus was trying to address here.
Tim in NY
The song "Rock of Ages cleft for me" comes to mind as I read this passage. A cleft is a safe place to be. It's trusting the protection of the rock no matter what may come. It is a total trust because the rest of the world is seen from this point. I really believe Jesus was trying to make this point through a parable that would make sense. Faith is the place we have shelter. It is a dwelling we build upon in each moment. So many times we look at life as something huge and we will always find time to get around to trusting God more. That faith is something we have at special moments. I hear Jesus saying, this moment before you now is your life. kb in ks
Eric - I hear you. I also know that I need to be reminded not to get too "works" oriented. Folks' discipleship tends to get skewed according to their nature. I have little patience for "talking heads," talk talk talk about faith with nothing to back it up. However, skewing in the works direction as I'm prone to do does little to distinguish ministry from social work. I like being reminded of some of those "straw men" issues.
Anyways, I'm preaching a series called "Back to Basics," and this scripture and the Romans speaks well to the overarching theme. This week's topic is "Bible Study." I intend to focus on Jesus' words, "the one who hears these words of mine and acts on them will be like a wise man," and Romans' "I'm not ashamed of the Gospel ... and later in the reading, upholding the Law." It's a direction a little different than I'd normally take. But I contend that in order to live according to Jesus' words we first must know what they actually say.
One question: "like a wise man" - is "wise man" along the lines of a sage, or is it simply a prudent person?
Next question: How does one preach the need for Bible study without sounding like it's some sort of drudgery task that we must grit our teeth and white-knuckle it through? Unfortunately, that's the impression many have. If only I could communicate the beautiful world opened up to me by actually learning what's in there!!!
Anyways, finals day again - and guess who, of my husband and me, has the more flexible schedule?? Sometimes a perk, sometimes a nuisance, but I'm off to pick up my older girl after her morning final.
Sally in GA
Hello all - Thanks for all the helpful thoughts.
Tigger in MN: I like your analysis of the "Lord, Lord" issue Jesus addressed--the syndrome of having faith in our faith (ourselves) instead of God's redeeming grace.
As for the discussion around faith and works, I hear a distinction between what Jesus says in Matthew and what Paul says. I understand the Matthew text to mean that belief without action (behavior)in not belief at all. Like Eric in KS said about works and faith, you can't have one without the other. However, I also believe we need to be careful that we don't send the message that we aren't doing enough. Caretakers, workaholics, co-dependents and people loaded down with guilt often believe that they just need to "do" more in order to save themselves, others and/or the world.
It seems to me that Jesus' encouragement to "hear" and "act" have more to do with the fact that it is only in our living (our actions) that our belief takes root and becomes a part of us and impacts the world. So it is not necessarily that we need to do more "works" (though for many of us that is precisely what is needed), but we need to live our faith in our day-to-day actions and interactions.
I'm thinking of talking about the difference between hearing the doctor's advise to eat less and exercise more, and actually doing it. Life saving!
Tom in GA: I have to wonder about the lack of response in your congregation when asked to share thoughts about the Trinity. Have you asked for live feedback in the past? If so, do they usually respond? Since it was the Memorial Weekend, were the outspoken persons not there? Maybe they were just basking silently in the mystery. On a whim I conducted a poll during my sermon on Trinity Sunday. I had been talking about how we experience God in different ways--some of us are most keenly aware of God's presence in creation (Creator), some of us have a very real sense of Jesus as companion and/or savior (Christ), some of us are tuned into the presence of the Holy Spirit. It was a bit more detailed, but for the sake of keeping this post from becoming an epistle I am summarizing. Then I asked people to indicate which aspect of the Trinity they responded to most strongly, 1) Creator, 2) Christ, 3) Spirit, 4) the wholeness of all three. (I both these terms and the traditional language of Father, Son and Holy Spirit.) I was surprised at the results. The clear majority chose option 4, the wholeness, with Creator and Spirit each receiving a considerable number of votes. Christ got zero votes. There were approximately fifty people participating.
JGBinID
