Jesus turned and looked at his disciples as he began to rebuke Peter. This seems significant to me. I wonder if in looking at his disciples Jesus saw their great need and was inspired to remain focused upon his calling and reject whatever argument Peter may have presented. Maybe, in looking at his disciples, Jesus saw your face and my face. His devotion was to his mission which came from God the Father and his devotion was to those to whom he had been sent. His personal inspiration came from God the Father and was directed toward the benefit of those who were needy before God.
His criticism of Peter was in relation to Peter's mindset. Peter's mind was set on human things and not divine things.
In addition to remaining focused on taking up his own personal cross, Jesus called those who would follow him to take up their own crosses. This call was not just to his disciples but also to the crowds who were present. It also applies to modern day followers.
V. 35 is profound. The way of the world is to preserve our lives: survival of the fittest, etc. Jesus says those who put attention and effort into saving their lives will lose them. I think this has more than a literal meaning. On the other hand, those who lose their lives for Jesus' sake and the sake of the gospel will save their lives. This can also have a literal and figurative meaning.
V. 36 brings many modern day examples to mind. Consider celebrities who seemed to have it all and are envied by so many common people, but have lost their lives and their wealth as well. The list is long. The poem "Richard Cory" comes to mind.
Creature Wayne
Creature Wayne,
I was unfamiliar with the poem, "Richard Cory," but it is readily accessible online, so I looked it up. I see a different perspective, I suppose, in that Richard Cory must not have believed that he had the whole world. His suicide was certainly a forfeiture of life, but it seems to me he neither gained the world, nor saved his life. I would like it if you could flesh this out a little more for me, as to what you mean as pertains to verse 36.
Thanks!
Michelle
I have most recently seen this text 8:38 especially used in a way that is abusive in emails trying to guilt people into passing on very decision theology and works rightouesness oriented stories and emails on.
Usually they say, If you love Jesus you will pass this on or you "fail the test" some of them actually call it a test!!! Anyway I think it is important to speak about the misuse of texts like these. In truth Christ would be ashamed of all the things we do and leave undone in our world but because of the cross that shame is turned into forgiveness through the grace of God. Don't know if that helps nayone but it is a thought I had
I really like this Gospel. I think there is fodder for many sermons. It really jumps out to me that when I identify with a character in the text, I'm Peter. My best intentions for fostering Jesus usually are not crossbearing. I also understand crossbearing as being the way of the servant. In Baptism, I'm connected to Jesus Cross and I become a cross bearer. Some traditions actually mark a cross on the forehead and breast of the one being baptized symbolizing the crossbearing. Finally, the understanding of Jesus to deny oneself. I think this can be overdone in the church. I think the understanding of denying oneself has more to do with the will of God instead of the will the selfishness of my own will. My will is ashamed of being seen following Jesus. My will might gain me much, but what will it do for me in the end? As someone said earlier, the understanding of this text is that it's based on God's will which is the will of grace and forgiveness. And, it leads us to a the theme of Lent of repentance.
Jesus apparently had foreknowledge of what was to come near the end of his ministry. The gospel writer notes that he spoke plainly about this, yet we know that what he told the disciples was often forgotten or disregarded. I say this, because when he was crucified, they didn’t seem to possess the hope of resurrection that his words offered. In this passage, to the extent that his words were understood, the resistance to the message was sharp and forceful. Peter took him aside “and rebuked him”, this passage says. Students, can you imagine correcting a teacher in your school in this manner? For the student of a Jewish Rabbi to do this would have been even more incomprehensible.
Jesus response was commensurately forceful. He responded in dramatic fashion and in harsh words. He equated Peter’s action with the activity of Satan. Was Satan enticing Peter? I don’t think that question is important. It may have been entirely Peter, but his rebuke of Jesus was “satanic” nonetheless in that it set itself, the will of Peter, against the will of God.
Jesus then proceeds to lay down the terms for those who would be his disciples. They must deny themselves and take up their cross. They must be willing to lay aside anything that stands between them and the purposes of God. The cost of discipleship is high. Jesus says that the stakes are high. Yes, we may forfeit much, but there is much to gain as well!
What does it mean to deny oneself and take up a cross? Imitating Christ isn’t about mimicking him. It’s about pursuing the will of God and not letting the cost of that obedience sway us from that purpose. Pursuing the will of God is not solely about moral perfection. Certainly, if we love God and pursue his will it will make a big impact on the moral choices that we make. Denying oneself would certainly result in resisting temptation, but it is in no way limited to that. That would be an aspect of discipleship that is a negation of possibilities. There are certainly aspects of discipleship that involve affirmation of other possibilities, possibilities that involve the faithful execution of one’s God-given responsibilities. Some of these responsibilities are part of the general call that belongs to all believers. Some are uniquely ours because of our gifts, because we are uniquely called to a special role in the reign of God.
--Commentary by lay-pastor Mike
Of course, Jesus is speaking to us - and all would be disciples ("He called the crowd with his disciples") - as the evangelist wrote this about 40 years after Jesus' death.
What's interesting is that Jesus describes "openly" (i.e., quite plainly) the great suffering, rejection, death and resurrection that lay before him. When Peter rebukes him, he rebukes back and tells Pete his mind is not on these "divine things."
Most of us don't consider suffering to be "divine." But by entering into all the suffering the world could offer, and living beyond it, Jesus redeemed the suffering of the whole world.
Jesus calls his followers to do the same - to deny themselves (their self-interested will) and take up not Jesus', but "their cross" and follow him. Follow him where? Into the suffering of the world to share Christ's redemption.
We don't often like these words because bearing a cross does denote suffering - a "divine thing," according to Jesus. In the Lenten study we are doing, the author quotes William Sloane Coffin in saying that the tragedy in life is not that we suffer. "All of us suffer. The tragedy, he said, is suffering that never gets redeemed, suffering that never gets healed, suffering that never leads to greater strength, suffering that never leads to new life. Jesus died on the cross to meet us in our weakness, so that by his suffering our suffering might be made useful, might be redeemed."
James Harnish (the author) says we are called to live a "cross-shaped life." We do this, he says, by first sharing Jesus' suffering, i.e., by entering into his suffering we begin to experience the depth of love and grace of God. The cross, he says, "declares that by his powerless love, Jesus overcame all of the world's loveless power." WOW!
A "cross-shaped life" also means "sharing, as Jesus shared, the suffering of others. Followers of the cross are called to take into their own experience the suffering experienced by brothers and sisters in the human family." And the author talks about how we avoid suffering through distractions readily available to us, and then makes a profound statement that rings loud with truth:
And that profound statement is: "But I am discovering that the closer I get to Jesus, the closer I get to the suffering of others." And I think the converse must also be true. The closer we get to the suffering of others, the closer we will get to Jesus.
There are more elements to living a "cross-dhaped life," but this bit on suffering rings true with what Jesus is saying in this Gospel text. It is something that his followers will do if they are true to him. We don't suffer for suffering's sake, but we enter into it with others to pass and continue Christ's redeeming work.
Suffering makes hard preaching. We are not good at denying ourselves; we can insulate ourselves from suffering. But Christ came to meet suffering and redeem it. So must his disciples. Much sermon time could be given to the "how." But I think the first entry speaks well. YOu don't have to look for a cross to bear, just act in love truth and justice, and suffering will follow. You will have plenty of opportunity to enter into the suffering of others - and to work to redeem it in the power/weakness of the living Christ.
Whew, I'm tired.
Blessings to all,
RevKinOK
"For what will it profit them to gain the whole world and forfeit their life?" I am struck by the fact that at this point in our nation's history, we seem to want to use our power to gain the whole world. The U.S. is the strongest military and economic power that seems to be seeking to enlarge its empire with no thought about self-sacrifice. This to me seems exactly like the kind of power Peter wanted Jesus to exhibit. And yet Jesus says this kind of self-serving power is satanic. It is opposite the kind of power that Jesus is trying to show in emptying himself to empower others. I think this is a hard word for us (myself included) to hear. But only in hearing it and responding to Jesus do we gain true life.
GB in MI
Last week we looked at Mark's focus of Jesus in the wilderness. We find that Jesus was "driven" to a place of testing (and no doubt suffering)by the Spirit of God. Jesus didn't choose to take a 40 day trip into the woods. God chose it for him. So, when Jesus talks about carrying a cross--it sounds like he is asking us to make a choice to either carry our cross or not carry our cross. I guess I am trying to find a way to connect last Sunday with this coming Sunday. Does the carrying of our own cross have to do with what how we choose to spend our time in the wilderness of our world--the places that God sends us for training? Rev. Loril in Montana
This seems to be the Sunday of the impossible tasks. In the first lesson, from Genesis 17 verse 1 God calls to Abram and says "walk before me and be blameless." Who in the history of humanity could possibly do that (other than Jesus)? And God says it so simply, so calmly, like it's no big deal. "Walk before me and be blameless." Then we get to the Gospel reading and Jesus tells us to lose our lives for his sake and the sake of the gospel. No matter how dedicated we are to the Word of God and the ministry of Jesus Christ, that is always going to be something we will resist. No one wants to lose her life. It is a basic human instinct to save your life.
Last week when Jesus was tossed out into the desert to be tested by Satan I talked about how the testing sharpened and strengthened Jesus for the things he would face during his ministry. Maybe if he had not endured that testing he would have wanted to listen to Peter say "No, you're not going to suffer and die;" maybe he would have softened his message so it wouldn't be quite so offensive to those in power. Jesus must also have had that basic human instinct to want to protect his own life. So here we are faced with two assignments: "walk before me and be blameless," and "give up your life for the sake of the gospel." It's amazing how God asks what sounds impossible of us and yet seems confident that we'll respond. Maybe it's because God is always aware of how much grace he is sending our way so that we'll be able to respond by giving our lives for the sake of the gospel. PKH in NC
from "The Gospel of Mark: A Socio-Rhetorical Commentary" by Ben Witherington III
The end of Mark 8 includes a call to discipleship in the form of Jesus suggesting that his disciples must take up their own crosses and follow him. It needs to be borne in mind that Jesus is not talking about ordinary, or even extraordinary, human burdens that we sometimes bear but that have no direct connection with discipleship to Jesus. For example, an illness may be a thorn in the flesh, but it is not our cross to bear. An injury may be a worrisome thing, but it is not our cross to bear. A difficult relative or a troublesome friend may be a problem, but it is not our cross to bear. Cross-bearing as a follower of Jesus means nothing less than giving one's whole life over to following him. And here comes another surprise. This is the way to total freedom. If you clutch your life wholly to yourself, protecting it against all others, asserting all your rights, needs and privileges, you lose it because it isn't life any longer. If, however, you acknowledge that life is not yours by right, that all is privilege, and that it is to be lived in the love that the gospel story reveals, self-giving love, then you possess it wholly. There is now nothing to lose and everything to gain.
In the end of Mark 8, Jesus tells his disciples that there are not merely many things worth living for, but some things worth dying for. Notice that he does not suggest that there are some things worth killing for. Jesus does have a theology of martyrdom, but he reflects no theology of a just war, perhaps chiefly because of his theocratic vision of reality. The kingdom of God is already breaking in to human history and God is king and judge. God will attend to the sorting out of such matters. Indeed, God is attending to the sorting out of those justice issues by Jesus' death on the cross. There is also the timely reminder to our own materialistic era that it profits nothing to gain the whole world and lose one's soul. Some years ago archaeologists discovered the tomb of Emperor Charlemagne of France. When it was opened for the first time in many centuries, the usual treasures of the kingdom were found, but in the center of the vault was a great throne, and upon it sat the skeleton of the ruler himself with an open bible in his lap. His bony finger had been made to point to a certain verse of Scripture—in fact, the one just referred to: "For what shall it profit a person if he shall gain the whole world and lose his own soul?" It is a timely reminder that our Western society needs to hear over and over again.
Is this another kind of promise from the Christ who
wants to redeem us? He calls the crowd and says:
"Deny self - take up cross - follow.
For, ...those who lose their life for my
sake and for the sake of the gospel, will save it.
Mr Bill in Mich.
Salvation Is Free, but Discipleship Costs," is my topic. I am thinking about talking about starting with looking at the cost of salvation to God and to Christ with emphasis on the fact that it remains a free gift of grace to us. We do nothing to earn it or to pay for it. However, Discipleship does come with a price tag. Although our crosses should not be viewed with the same messianic price tag of the cross of Christ, we are still called to be cross bearers. TN Mack
With no offense meant to Native Americans, I think this old joke relfects modern day Church live and the view of taking up the cross:
The Lone Ranger and Tonto are riding along when they find themselves ambushed by a band of Indians. The Lone Ranger says to Tonto "I think we're in a pretty bad bind, Tonto!" to which Tonto replies "What do you mean 'We', Kemosabe?"
Pr. del in Ia
Another thought to consider: do we listen for Jesus' rebuke when we focus on church growth that sometimes caters to a consumer mentality instead of serving Christ by taking up our crosses? TN Mack
I travel this weekend to baptize my first grandchild in Michigan. What a joy. AND I get to preach. As I read this Gospel reading, I was struck by the phrase, "things of God". It has become my focus for the message, contrasting the "things of God" and the things NOT of God. The things of God are salvation in Christ (v. 31), selfless service in His kingdom (v. 34), and the souls of God's people (vv. 35-37). This text is a marvelous example of how Jesus takes the disciples where they ARE and moves them to growing in Him. They typically are egocentric in their outlook. Jesus broadens their vision of the world...and hopefully, ours. Still working on it. ARMY CH E, Fort Belvoir, VA
During Lent so many people "deny" themselves things, like chocolate, television, etc. Such a misunderstanding of what Jesus meant to deny ourselves. I don't believe Jesus is calling us to give up sweets (although, for some, it may be a good idea for other reasons)but, rather, he is calling us to give up our ego. Giving up our own agendas, etc. I think of Sinatra's old song about doing it "My Way." Just some thoughts...revloril in Montana
Rev. Loril in Montana:
One connection that I see between this gospel reading and last Sunday's gospel reading concerns Satan. Last week Jesus was tempted by Satan in the wilderness. This Sunday Peter rebukes Jesus and Jesus connects whatever Peter said to him with Satan. Satan is only mentioned 6 times in Mark: first in Ch.1 when Satan tempts Jesus; three times in one of Jesus' teachings in 3:23-26; once in a parable (4:15); and here where Jesus calls Peter Satan. I wonder if whatever Peter said to Jesus in his rebuke brought back memories for Jesus about his temptation by Satan in Ch.1. Again, Jesus rebukes Peter by saying, " you are setting your mind not on divine things, but human things." I still have a lot of thinking to do about this connection and its meaning for present day believers.
Creature Wayne
V 38 rings a bell for our congregation. I could elaborate on the devotion I gave at our charge conference, "Why I put a Jesus Fish on My Car." The reasons are numerous, but it boils down to this: which am I? a nice, polite little Christian who wouldn't offend a fly? or a nice, polite disciple who can proclaim her beliefs? A "cool" person or a Jesus freak? My nature is to be "cool," and it's true that my extroverted nature helps develop relationships without being too threatening, thus opening the door for witness. However, the examination of my heart reveals that I'm also very concerned about what others think of me.
Like Peter (who, I STILL maintain only speaks aloud what most of the rest of us are thinking), we want our preparation for Easter to be all fuzzy bunnies and Cadbury eggs and lilies. We want the prettiness without the ugliness. Denying ourselves means stepping out on faith, losing our lives, without a safety net. It means not jumping to the prettiness, which is as false as the Easter bunny without grasping the sacrifice involved in a cross. We want the empty cross and tend to ignore the crucifix (at least we Protestants do).
We had a GREAT Girl Scout Sunday last week!!! I'm praising all over the place.
Sally in GA
Michelle,
I was connecting v.36 with what Jesus said to Peter in v. 33: "Get behind me, Satan! For you are setting your mind not on divine things but on human things." The average man on the street looked at Richard Cory and envied him because of his possessions and his status in the community. The poem is written from the perspective of a person who wished that he was in Richard Cory's place. The irony is that Richard Cory, for whatever reason, found no consolation in those things that other people envied. Not only did he give them up, he also gave up his life. Maybe both Richard Cory and the speaker in the poem had their minds set on human things and not divine things.
Jesus, on the other hand, is our example and he is one who set his mind on divine things. He ultimately sacrificed his life, but consider what was gained by that sacrifice. The gain was both for Christ and for us. Jesus fulfilled his mission and we gained salvation.
Jesus called those who would follow him to follow his example. I don't think we can take up our cross properly until our minds are set on divine things rather than human things. It has led to disaster when I have tried to take up a cross without the proper mindset.
I hope this makes some sense. Your response has challenged me and I am still working out my thinking about this text and how I can understand it and articulate it. Thanks for the challenge.
Creature Wayne
Sally in Ga says,
I, too, am intrigued by the seeming "turn-around" of where we position ourselves in relation to God.
I have always "heard" "before me" as "in my presence." or maybe even "in the knowledge of my presence," which could literally be beside, before, behind, within God's presence.
Jesus, however, is offering himself not only as savior, but as example. He shows us how to walk before God. Hence, we must follow. Max in NC
How do we do it? What some practical things we can tell our congregations about how to deny ourselves and to take up our crosses? I feel like I've been talking about suffering and following Jesus for the last few weeks--now I want to tell them how--bring it down. What does it look like? What is the "how to" of this text? revloril in Montana
Creature Wayne,
I think you are right on! While Mark didn't go into detail, I am guessing that all of the temptations Jesus dealt with in the wilderness had to do with not carrying his own cross. How to be King without the suffering. In Jesus' humanness, I bet there was truly a deep struggle about not drinking from the cup of death. And, just like us, when we know there is something difficult that we must do, it makes it harder when people come to our defense, giving us other options. Until we've walked in the same shoes as Jesus, we will never understand what this whole journey meant for him. revloril in Montana
Creature Wayne,
But, how do we walk in Jesus' shoes? And, are we called to make the same sacrifice in our own lives? revloril in Montana
How about contemplating this: the difference between the crosses we bear and the crosses we choose to take up? The crosses we bear may be the alcoholic spouse, illness such as cancer, the problem child, the uncooperative coworker, the always negative church member. However, there are crosses we take up. I chose to be a pastor and while I have made sacrifices in both money and time, I have received much. There are those saints who take up the crosses of VBS directorship, being in charge of some committee/team, being in church choirs. These crosses all require sacrifices of time and a call to dedication. A cross need not be a negative thing. I chose to be a parent and while I have sacrificed much to be a parent I have received many blessings. Now that our sons are in college I would be willing to do the cross of raising them all over again. I may have complained some at the time, but I enjoyed making those sacrifices. Something to think about! PH in OH
One more cross to take up - the people who are unchurched. Who is willing to leave their comfort zones and go minister to these children of God?
Jesus took up this cross and is one big place we need to follow him. To the question "Do we need to follow Jesus to the cross?" I don't think so. Doesn't Paul say, "He died once for all?" I am not Jesus. I don't come close. I have enough trouble trying to follow his commandments to love God and neighbor. I need a lot of grace, and yes, I know it doesn't come cheap! PH in OH
Dear PH in OH:
I don't think that Jesus is asking us to take on certain hardships to become disciples like becoming a pastor, a parent, making a few sacrifices. Above I quoted from a commentary and here is a portion of it:
"It needs to be borne in mind that Jesus is not talking about ordinary, or even extraordinary, human burdens that we sometimes bear but that have no direct connection with discipleship to Jesus. For example, an illness may be a thorn in the flesh, but it is not our cross to bear. An injury may be a worrisome thing, but it is not our cross to bear. A difficult relative or a troublesome friend may be a problem, but it is not our cross to bear. Cross-bearing as a follower of Jesus means nothing less than giving one's whole life over to following him."
Taking up our cross to follow Jesus means that we completely deny ourselves and that it may well lead to death. To the first-century reader of Mark's Gospel v. 34 would not have sounded like a flowery metaphor. "Rather it would be seen as an invitation to come and die, an invitation to martyrdom. Jesus doesn't insist that his followers lose their lives, but he does insist that they deny themselves and be prepared to die if that should be required to remain true to their faith in and following of Jesus."
I think we do our hearers a disservice if we suggest that taking up their cross means making some sacrifices for their faith. What it means is making a total sacrifice, turning from a way of life that seeks only to preserve its life and turning to a way of life that is willing to lose its life. That's where the freedom of Christ comes to us.
Shalom
A gentle warning...
This passage has caused suffering. To tell a person that is in an abusive relationship or living in an abusive lifestyle to "give up yourself" or "bear a cross" or "lose your life" is criminal. I can easily see how this particular passage can be distorted to hurt or misheard as a punishment or interpreted as a call to stay within the cycle of abuse. One must be very careful and compassionate to preach on this text.
TB in MN
The quotation from "The Gospel of Mark: A Socio-Rhetorical Commentary" by Ben Witherington III is "right on"!
"We all have our crosses to bear" (when uttered as "comfort" for someone burdened with an illness, an abusive spouse, or some other tragedy) is a great perversion of Jesus' call to take up our crosses!
Blessings, Eric in KS (still....)
This from "Days of Wesley" on taking up one's cross:
[11] There is a difference between “taking up our cross” and “bearing” a cross. We bear our cross when we endure what is laid upon us without our choice. We “take up” our cross when we willing embrace God’s will even though it is contrary to our nature. [12] While it is true that there is no temptation which befalls us that has not been experienced by all persons [cf. 1 Cor 10.13], there is another sense in which God treats us as clay in potter’s hands [Jer 18.6]. [13] And it is through our suffering that he heals us. [14] So we see that taking up our cross involves the embracing of God’s will for our life, contrary to our own natural will, which yields eternal pleasure. [II.1] It is through our unwillingness to deny ourselves that we do not thoroughly “follow him”. It may be that the unavailability of the means of grace, hearing the word of God, or Christian fellowship, may lead to our deficiencies, but where this is not the case, it is always our lack of self-denial which hinders our growth as a disciple.
kbc in sc
TB & Shalom:
Are not abusive relationships, illness, etc. crosses people have? I do not mean to say that people should stay in that relationship. But they are things inflicted upon us and not of our own choice.
I think being a pastor is a cross for me. It was a call I heard and a choice I made. At least for me being a pastor is my whole life. I see my congregation as my family. I have been admonished several times for being true to the gospel. And I hope that I would be faithful unto death.
So, what do you guys suggest as examples the people in the pews can relate to, other than Jesus, as examples of modern day cross bearing? Give me some help here! PH in OH
PH asked "Are not abusive relationships, illness, etc. crosses people have?"
Wouldn't it be better to say, as Shalom suggested, that these are "thorns in the flesh" (to use a Pauline metaphor) rather than "crosses"? It seems to me that kbc's "Days of Wesley" post above, which makes a distinction between "bearing a cross" and "taking up the cross", also answers the question -- but the distinction that is made there is a bit to subtle and can better be made by using the thorn metaphor.
Blessings, Eric in KS
Anyone going to tackle the seemingly obvious reality that Jesus didn't say these words ascribed to him about "taking up your cross and following"? The gospel writers and early church community surely put those words in Jesus' mouth because, until he was crucified, the phrase "taking up your cross" would not have had anywhere near the meaning we now attribute to it.
Tom in WNY
I have been helped by the line; "should is shit and want is wonderful." It is new for me to do things that I want to do. When I did too many things because I "should" have done them, I looked and felt like a crucified person. Running around being "a Messiah" for people is maybe not what is being asked for here. In the end, all Messiah's get crucified. Is it possible to "lose our life" for God, and still be doing what we "want" to do? Is it possible that when we do things we want to do, we are finding our soul? Brent in Pincher
I keep wondering how well I would have understood these words, even if I had been present. I think that I may have had to chew on them awhile. Raising someone from the dead, is not the same as being raised from the dead of and by yourself and predicing it.
Also, what will happen for us in the mortal world is unpredictable.
This week I am tying in St. Patricks day. And will do the blessing of the Greens using a shamrock plant.
Tony in WNY asked: "Anyone going to tackle the seemingly obvious reality that Jesus didn't say these words ascribed to him about 'taking up your cross and following'?"
Of course this is intuitively obvious... but although "the early church" through the writer of this gospel put these words in Jesus' mouth, it must have done so because in its memory this (or something like this) had been the substance of Jesus' message. Perhaps Jesus' actual words had been something like, "If anyone wants to be my disciple, they will have to do enter into the sort of self-sacrificing service I will perform." The church then "read back" the experience of crucifixion into the call to discipleship.... so does it matter that Jesus probably didn't use these particular words: yes - perhaps a little bit, but really "no" because in a broader sense the issue is not so much "cross bearing" as it is active discipleship which may (usually does) include abandonment of self.
Blessings, Eric in KS
I think it is important that I don't give the people the message that I'm in ministry because it is "my cross to bear." They need to know that I enjoy being with them. One of the great gifts I can give to myself and to the congregation is to have fun and pleasure in ministry. I don't want my wife to be married to me because I am her "cross to bear." I want her to enjoy being my friend.
I do, however, think that if Saddam would deny himself and leave power in Iraq for the good of his people, he would be serving a higher cause. Would that be such a heavy cross to bear? Brent in Pincher
My take on all of this 'cross bearing' hinges on the interpretation of 'deny themselves' in verse 34. If by 'self' Jesus meant I have to give up my self-centered life inwhich I serve me and only me, I agree. I lose a great deal of true life when I see the world as a place where I go to get my needs and wishes met. Such a life makes the rest of the world exist in the role of slave to my desire to be master. The 'cross' we bear then becomes an admission that we are called to a life of servanthood within the greater community and not the other way around. That would also help explain verse 35- the life I would lose is the self centered individualistic life of the materialistic world and the salvation I gain would be acceptance into a sacred role within the community of faith.
My earlier warning, now that I have reflected upon it for a day, is that 'cross to bear' language is typically used in the wrong context in reference to the suffering that results from oppressive individual burdens and, at times, hints at abusive relationships. One might say 'my wife is an alcoholic and that is my cross to bear' or 'I am a minister and have to serve 60 hours a week and that is my cross to bear.' There is no sense of Christ-like servanthood in either of those statements. There is, however, a strong sense of enslavement and a longing to be set free.
Living as a servant in the spirit of Christ should liberate, not inhibit. Christ sets us free and, to revisit my main point, if we are not liberated by the life we are losing or the cross we are bearing, then I would argue that one is not truly following God's call in their life. My warning to all preachers is that we do not want to reinforce abusive behaviors or encourage the suffering to suffer more in the name of Jesus.
so... I am trying to flip this scripture on its head. Losing ones life is really gaining a new and better life. Our cross to bear is finding the liberating word of grace and a way out of suffering. Peter's rebuke serves as a good example- he is saying that Jesus should not continue to serve others but only think of himself (or, to be accurate, be enslaved by Peter's desire). Jesus' retort is to remind Peter of their places within the Kingdom of God. Put aside you enslavement to societies desires and become a servant of the kingdom and be set free.
Enough already,
TB in MN
To PH in OH,
I don't think you'll like this answer, but I don't believe we can enumerate a cross bearing "laundry list" for our congregations. Jesus is talking with his disciples about what their "heart attitude" is. He has just rebuked His rebuking Peter because his head isn't in the game, so I don't think a list of things to do is too useful here. The question is are we willing to pick up whatever cross comes to us and follow when we are called to?
The Cross of Christ is a place of suffering, yes. But it is also the place where he freely gave His life to save ours. It is the place of complete obedience to God. It is the place of complete availability to the will and purpose of God to reconcile the world and be glorified in its redemption. Suffering is here, yes very much. But the past is dealt with and the future begins at the cross too.
If there is something we need to carry from the Cross of Jesus as we carry our own crosses it is that we need to seek to be available to God's will and obedient to His commands in our own walk of faith. Living as forgiven sinners we leave our pasts and walk in the light of the future that the inbreaking of the Kindom of Heaven heralds.
This means I need to pursue what God wants, not what I want. This means that forgiveness and reconciliation must shape my life, not my desire for self-justification and independance. This will look different in each person's life so a list won't work. I believe that each of us will know our cross when we see it. The question is will we pick it up?
Pastor B in SK
Friends,
Regarding the discussion of taking up our cross, yet not submitting to abusive relationships, the following is a prayer by Janet Morley from her book "All Desires Known" (Morehouse Publishing)I think she captures the difference well.
"Jesus our brother, you followed the necessary path and were broken on our behalf. May we neither cling to our pain where it is futile, nor refuse to embrace the cost when it is required of us; that in losing our selves for your sake, we may be brought to new life, Amen."
PKH in NC
In Genesis, following the almost fatal attempt by Sarai and Abram to take God's promise into their own hands by having a child through Hagar, God has been silent for thirteen years, and Abram is now 99 years old!
Consider the angst that must have filled his whole being - God promises, God waits ... how patient can we be?
Such a promise now appears in Mark - God will raise Jesus from the dead ... but it doesn't happen immediately (what happened Mark??), the disciples and the crowds will have to wait - first there will be suffering, rejection, death.
How do we hope in the midst of all of this? Will there be peace following the Iraqi war? Will I survive my divorce, my lose of a job, etc.? Will I survive my own death?
Where is God in the midst of this waiting? Where am I in the midst of my living?
Here is a call to discipleship - a way to walk - in the midst of hope. How are we doing?
tom in ga
To Pastor B in SK - I agree with your hesitation to develop some sort of "list" of crosses to bear - too often when we do that, folks tend to check their life against the list and come to conclusions, pro or con, based on that list. However, at the same time, I do think examples are helpful so that it is clear to folks the difference between "bearing a cross" and dealing with stuff that comes our way. In the past, when I have addressed this whole topic, I have always tried to explain it very simply:
If you have a negative experience, be it physical suffering, emotional distress, persecution, etc., because of the role your faith has in your life, or because the individual(s) who imposed that upon you did so in response to your Christian faith, etc., then that, to a greater or lesser degree, is a "cross." If the difficult circumstances are not related to your Christian faith (and the position you take or find yourself in because of your commitment to it) in any way, but simply the result of circumstances experienced in a sinful world (physical handicaps, extended illness, obnoxious neighbors, etc.) those are not "crosses."
I have a teenager daughter who consistently has to decline offers from her friends to go to movies with objectionable themes, scenes, language, etc., because she knows it is not right, would be inappropriate, etc., and her friends know those decisions are directly related to her Christian faith and a desire to follow Jesus. In a circumstance like that, to a certain extent, I believe one could say that, at this point in her life, that's one of her crosses to bear.
Just my opinion of course.
DD in CA
I went to a workshop the other day on suicide prevention. The presenter stated- you have to 'have it' to lose it. Thought of what it is we have before believing in Christ- a dead life under the control of self and satan and how if we try to 'keep' it we only end up with more of the same. It is Christ who overcame in the wilderness. Only by surrendering all of our selves, selfish will and all, to Jesus, can we gain anything- for then our lives belong to Him and He will do in and with us what He wills. And that can only be good. I keep thinking of Romans 8:12-13. Not sure how to put this together but the reflections are fun.
CM from "down under'
When I presented this text for my lectionary study group Tuesday, I quite unintentionally opened by saying, "This text could be called the crux of the gospel. Another pastor seized on that word, saying, "Yes! This truly is the CRUX of the gospel. "Crux" is a form of the Latin word for "cross," so Jesus' saying here truly is the "cross" point of faith.
I have a member of my current church who strongly argues with me that not every Christian is called to be a disciple!!!! True, not everyone in church ACTS like a disciple, but this word from Jesus is obviously directed at ALL who would be believers. "HE CALLED THE CROWD [emphasis mine] with his disciples, and said to them, 'If any want to become my followers, let them deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me.'" WE are the crowd. WE are called to take up our cross. This will not be seen by most of the world as a heroic act. Re the discussion about this saying going back to Jesus - I think it does. Crucufixion by the Romans was common in Jesus' day, not just for insurrectionists, but for common criminals. What Jesus plainly says here is, "To be my disciple, you must be willing to act & speak in ways that will bring you shame. The world will treat you like a common criminal. You WILL lose the world." How we lose the world matters. If we follow Christ, what we gain is ourselves. . . in Christ. Ken in WV
"We all have our 'cross to bear'"... what does that mean really? I've heard folks use that as a lame attempt to downplay the struggle of a friend or loved one.
"Glady the Cross-eyed Bear"... humor aside...
I spoke to a woman in one of my parishes... she described the scene of when she was a little girl... 1st grade age... she had some skin disease that she was coated in some kind of ointment that turned her skin purple... her parents put it on her arms and legs and sent her to school. (GinViolet if I recall!) ANYway... she'd go out to the sand box to play and her classmates withdrew. Her teacher however... "Mrs. Miller" would pick her up and hold her as she cried her rejected cry. She's never forgotten that kindness. She's now in her 70's feeling she missed her calling... she should have been pastor, but women weren't encouraged to enter the ministry. A sad story... her "cross to bear"... is the reality of what could have been but was not.
Is that what Jesus meant?
If so, I don't like Jesus... why must "good people" suffer stupid things?
pulpitt in ND
Rev Loril in Montana looks for a connection with last week. May I offer my suggestion.
In this gospel Jesus acknowledges that the wilderness experience is the valid and true spiritual life. Jesus never really came out of the wilderness, he simply continued to operate in that environment and found the genuineness of suffering, was the ability to exhibit compassion in every circumstance.
Our human desire to find places of rest/comfort/security/pleasure rob us of this reality. We fail to appreciate how much we miss in one another, because we are always looking for an easier path.
Can you drink the cup, with which I am to be baptised?
Remember that Satan is not the doer of evil, simply the tempter. In Peter's words Jesus identifies the temptation for himself to rest. To deny that part of life, which is "cross" is to simply forgo the ability to care.
The opposite of love is not necessarily hate, it is simply selfishness.
The ability to remain in the wilderness experience and like it, is the hardest element of the spiritual realm. Jesus was definitely the master.
Regards,
KGB in Aussie.
Sally, Lori, Kim and others, many Good postings.
Kim I think you wrote your sermon! All of you are so far ahead of me this week.
I did a sermon on letting Jesus out of the Fish! I saw a truck, a big macho truck sporting one bumper sticker with , Get the Hell off my tail and a quiet little Christian fish! Of course the go to hell bumper sticker was much bigger than the fish. If you keep a fish in a small area it tends to stay small or die as it out grows its space.
for Lenen services, (Got this idea from another Pastor) I had a volunteer make little wooden crosses. Those that came to the Lenten services recieved a cross and a stone. Each week a symbol is added. Last sunday one of the parishioners thought I forgot (even with a bulletin to follow I forget stuff) to announce those who wanted one of the crosses could have one (they were lined up on top of the organ in two neat rows waiting for this weeks services). I shook my head and said, "no they are for those who come to the lenten services." I knew that we would have some "first timers" each week so I knew I would need them. Weds. morning, I walked into the sanctuary to set up for the 11:00am service and was astonished to find at least 5 or 6 missing! Obviously some one or some "ones" have taken up a cross. I have no idea who would have taken them. My secretary wanted to put an announcment in the bulletin to get them back! Asking people to return them. I told her if they need a cross that badly let them keep it! Nancy-Wi
I must say that I have really enjoyed your discussions since I discovered them three weeks ago. Thank you all for your insights and suggestions and ideas. I hope you don't mind if I borrow them, I do give you guys all of the credit.
Please pray for me and our little "liturgical" congregation here in La Maddalena, Sardinia Italy. My husband is the Lutheran Navy Chaplain on the ship homeported here [USS Emory S. Land, AS-39, a repair ship] and they have been gone so far a month, future return date up to Saddam I think. I have been trying to lead a service of the word each sunday, no permission from my husbands bishop for me as a lay person to give communion and no consecrated elements anyway. All of us spouses [the ship is 40% female sailors] and our kids are pretty apprehensive of rumors of war, etc. I liked your statements about taking up your cross, I took up leading the Sunday service and now WED night lenten devotions.
Anyway, if any of you would add us to your prayer list, we would appreciate it. Thanks again. Grazie.
Ciao! Annie in Italy
I think that another dimension of taking up one's cross is political. By being faithful to his calling in what he said and did, Jesus threatened the established powers, both political and religious. He always stood on the side of the powerless and oppressed, seeking to expose the injustice that kept people from becoming whole. He paid the ultimate price when he was put to death.
When we seek to take up our own cross, it seems to me that we must follow Jesus' example to work for justice and and end to oppression wherever we are able.
In my own life, I have worked with battered women, sexually abused women, and most recently in the area of clergy sexual misconduct. I've stood with victims who are asking for justice when the church wants to turn a blind eye, worked with congregations as they attempt to work toward healing, and with offenders who are repentant. This is only one example of how one might choose to follow Jesus' example.
RevSophia
Correcting a typo in my last post. The middle paragraph should read: When we seek to take up our own cross, it seems to me that we must follow Jesus' example to work for justice and an end to oppression wherever we are able.
Welcome to Annie in Italy!
Glad you posted and joined in our discussion. How wonderful that you can share in a ministry of the Word with such a unique community.
My prayers are with you in this time of waiting.
SueCan
I see the link between last week's scripture and this week's as being temptation: last week Jesus was tempted by Satan 'directly' (I believe this to have been an inner struggle) and this week he was tempted by Peter. In both cases the temptation was to forgo the way of the cross. This way had been revealed to him at his baptism through the voice of God, "You are my Son, the Beloved; with you I am well pleased", a construct of Psalm 2:7 "Messiah" passage and Isaiah 42:1, the beginning of the "Suffering Servant" passage.
The Spirit drove Jesus into the wilderness where he was tested in regard to this calling. For 40 days he struggled, fasted, prayed and ultimately accepted this calling. Now Peter, his friend and disciple, has resurrected this temptation to forgo the cross and choose an easier path, to set his mind on human things instead of divine things. Thus the STRONG rebuke. Peter's voice is not just one of misguided support for Jesus, but the voice of Satan tempting him again. Sometimes our friends do that to us.
vs. 34-38 then, is his call to the disciples and to the crowd (and to himself?) to do what he has done - and will do again and again and again - consciously choose the cross, the way of God instead of chosing to serve human things. And yes, that cross is specifically service to God - the crown of thorns and not simply the thorns in the side we all have to deal with. And on that I need to mull over some more.
Ed in Ga
Annie in Italy, we will keep you in our prayers. It is pretty tough situtation. May God's presence give you strength and the word of God give you Wisdom. Blessing on this new faith path! Go Girl Go! nancy-Wi
The Jerome commentary sheds light on the image of bearing one's cross. Crucifixion was well known in Jesus' day, of course. To be made to carry the cross meant submitting fully to the Roman authority. With that in mind, the cross Jesus speaks of is submitting, obeying, believing, following, trusting HIM. Our "burdens" of bad things, illness, pains, hardships, etc are NOT our crosses. Our "cross" is our attitude or faithfulness in relation to those things which happen to everyone. For instance - Peter's "cross" comes for him when he is faced with having to speak up or deny Jesus on Good Friday. Paul's "cross" is his response when struck down on the Damascus road. I may not be clear - but I sense an important difference between our "burdens" and the cross Jesus is saying to take up. Taking up faithfulness - trust in spite of proof, hope in the darkest time - is what Jesus calls for. And that cross truly lightens the burdens and lets us turn them over to God in faith. ...Still trying to figure it out...Jim in CT.
I probably will not preach on the following but the story of Elizabeth Smart and her family come to mind in these lessons.
Here is a family who never in their imagination thought that their young daughter would be kidnapped for nine months. They continued to have faith and "hoped against hope" (NRSV). Their faith sustained them through their many dark nights.
Their cross, no doubt, was the way they bore the pain of separation and fear of the future. They are indeed the children of Abraham and true disciple of our Lord.
tom in ga
Annie in Italy, Thank you for your posting, and for being willing to lead in worship in these unusual circumstances. While we are all thinking about what it means to take up your cross, you are out doing it. Your cross is to continue to make sure that worship is carried out, and people are ministered to with the love of Christ, even if you are not ordained, you are still a minister! You are taking up the cross of responsibility for this small community of spouses in a tense time of waiting. May you all be able to draw near to the Lord, and trust that the Lord will draw near to you and you cling to the Lord for strength. I'm an elder in the United Methodist Church, and if I were there in Italy, I would be glad to bless the elements for the communion service. The cross for Christ was all about obedience. It was about doing his assignment. I pray that the Lord will pave the way for all of us to see the cross that is before us daily.
Rev. Evelyn in North Carolina
Just logged on to see what other great insights I might gain--although very late this week. While I totally agree that abuse, hurt and pain are truly, truly crosses, I also believe that this scripture goes deeper. Are we willing to get out of our comfort zones for the sake of the kingdom. Didn't Peter just want things the way they were? As he was beginning to see the possibility that Jesus is the Messiah didn't he want to say and in fact say, "Jesus, what are you doing? We have a good thing going here?" How does that relate to our churches (and that would be us!) being in our comfort zones? Don't rattle the cage! Don't say that I need to be out there preaching the good news! That makes people laugh at me and it makes a fool of me! lp in CO
GB in MI:
I wish I had the nerve to say what you said:
"For what will it profit them to gain the whole world and forfeit their life?" I am struck by the fact that at this point in our nation's history, we seem to want to use our power to gain the whole world. The U.S. is the strongest military and economic power that seems to be seeking to enlarge its empire with no thought about self-sacrifice. "
Anyone else paralyzed by unwillingness to move out of the hearing range of your congregation, all of whom seem to have a "God is on our side" theology of the impending war? What can I say that they will hear? How can I say it in such a way that they will continue to be willing to hear me?
Anyone else there?
kbc in sc
GB in MI and KBC in SC
When Jesus instructs his disciples on personal spirituality and forfeiting one's soul, I seriously doubt it has even the remotest connection to seeking to end a totalitarian, ruthless regime. I have always found it helpful to remain true to the text and context. Having personally assisted in removing the bodies of American citizens, men and women, from the rubble of the Pentagon in September 2001, I have a different perspective on what "forfeiting life" meant for some. Any action our government and/or military may take has absolutely no connection to "gaining the world". When we pour billions of dollars and millions of tons of food, medicine, and aid to third world nations, the gain is minimal. Did liberating Europe gain the world for the United States? I believe they are still Europe and not a colony of America. And as the Taliban has lost power in Afghanistan, where I spent 5 months last year, I have seen no evidence of American "gain" in that part of the world. On the other hand I did see in Bagram little children once again going to school and living without fear. Our listeners need to hear the Gospel, the hope we have in Christ, and the "things of God" even in troublesome times.
Army Ch E, Fort Belvoir, VA
Jim in CT. Interesting thoughts. I would like you to say more. I don't understand yet what virtue bearing the cross would have meant to people in those times when crosses were so prevelant, and so feared. Was it subversive? What is the connection to submitting to Rome, verses submitting to God? Surely they were submitting in such different ways. Please say more, if you are still checking in.
Army Ch E, Fort Belvoir, VA. Thanks for keeping us thoughtful about the good side of America, and the good side of those serving in the trenches. You strive to keep us balanced. Still, isn't a vice when a virtue has gone too far? There is good in the American way, and good in having power and ability - but it is still possible that good can become evil, when good outstrips its virtue. You are right to not let us make monsters out of either the other side, or our side. Yet what is evil? Where is it? Is it out there? I hope you're still checking in. Brent in Pincher
Creature Wayne,
I meant to say thanks for the clarification, but was pulled away from the computer... So, here it is: Thank you. Your clarification was very helpful.
Army Chaplain E.,
Thank you for your posting that not everything that comes out of war is evil. Certainly, there may be other ways to accomplish the desired good. Certainly not all motivations of various Americans are good. Certainly war will bring great suffering for many (all?) of us. Yet, we need to trust that whatever mistakes we make, and whatever successes occur, God is still the one in control.
Anyone see "Gods and Generals" yet? Four hours (almost)! Yet, I did get the feeling that the writer believed Stonewall Jackson understood that God was ultimately in charge, and that God would see that good would come out of the (Civil) war, even if it was not quite compatible with his own desires.
I pray for our people, Annie, and those with whom you minister, our brothers and sisters in the armed forces, the leaders of the nations, and all who strive for an end to the hostilities. And I feel for those who will lose lives or loved ones. But I trust God to work miracles despite human failures. I trust God to work miracles despite human successes!
If Peter had succeeded in his human desire to turn Jesus from that pathway, where would we be? If Judas had not succeeded... Where would we be?
Michelle
RevKinOk
I want to thank you for your posting on the "cross-shaped life". It really made me sit and think about my own Christian walk. I wanted to know if that was from James Harnish Lenten study "Dying to Live"
I also have a question to ask those about whether or not Christ used the term cross when speaking to his disciples and to the crowd. If Christ was teaching them, his disciples that he must suffer and be rejected by the Sanhedrin, and to be killed and to rise again; is it not possible, with the numbers of people that had been crucified already, that he had already forseen the Cross in his future.
DEBinCNY
A late hour contribution here . . .
Two things surprise and disturb me as I hear Jesus in this passage--one has to do with something he SAYS and the other with something Jesus DOES NOT SAY.
I am struck by the force and tone of Jesus' rebuke of Peter. Peter is not a coward, and even if he is not perfect he is the "point-man" for the disciples. Peter is often the "crash-test dummy" going headlong into obstacles and leaving lessons for others to learn. And it would seem Peter is not part of the problem--after all, this encounter comes just on the heels of Peter's dramatic declaration of Jesus' true nature: "the anointed, chosen one of God who has been promised" (the Messiah, the Christ). Yet, Peter's insight is not yet deep enough. And Jesus' response--strong and sharp--indicates that sincerity and heartfelt belief are not enough. Peter and all of those who would follow Jesus must be radically committed to following the path of God's work, no matter where it leads.
I also am struck by the fact that Jesus does not really explain what "taking up your cross" means. The best we can know is that it falls somewhere between "denying yourself" and "following Jesus." This seems to indicate that our life/faith stories can be told like this: "Once upon a time, it was all about me, and my goals and my hopes -- but SOMETHING HAS HAPPENED -- and henceforth, it will be about Christ and his desires." That "cross-roads, that 'crux' or crucial, critical time (all words related to "cross") will look different for each of us. And the task of cross-bearing will be different for each one of us, too--just as it turned out to be for those early followers of Jesus.
I think that two related points can be made here.
First, sometimes--in spite of our best and most faithful intentions--we wind up standing in the way of God's work (and that can happen with individuals, churches, denominations, even nations). We must not seek to determine whether "God is on our side" as to discern whether "we are on God's side."
Second, as we learn to "get real" with God, God will be faithful to show us what it means, in our own lives, what it means to "take up your cross." This, too, is a matter of ongoing "heart checkups," as we monitor our spiritual condition.
So the question for us is whether we will BLOCK the road of God's work, or WALK the road of God's work. And we can be assured that Jesus will know and remember. Meanwhile, in "losing our lives in faith" we find true life.
TK in OK
