Scripture Text (NRSV)
Luke 18:1-8
18:1 Then Jesus told them a parable about their need to pray always
and not to lose heart.
18:2 He said, "In a certain city there was a judge who neither
feared God nor had respect for people.
18:3 In that city there was a widow who kept coming to him and
saying, 'Grant me justice against my opponent.'
18:4 For a while he refused; but later he said to himself, 'Though
I have no fear of God and no respect for anyone,
18:5 yet because this widow keeps bothering me, I will grant her
justice, so that she may not wear me out by continually coming.'"
18:6 And the Lord said, "Listen to what the unjust judge says.
18:7 And will not God grant justice to his chosen ones who cry to
him day and night? Will he delay long in helping them?
18:8 I tell you, he will quickly grant justice to them. And
yet, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on earth?"
Comments:
P. U. S. H. - Pray Until Something Happens. Missy In The South
This has proven to be so very true in my life.. so very true. Pray
without ceasing. Though He knows our needs before we do, pray without
ceasing for that which is truly important. But remember always, that
what you are seeking must somehow be of service to Him and not only to
yourself.. seek ye first the Kingdom of God... then all this things
will be added unto you! So true!
As I approach Children's Sabbath with this text, thinking about
praying and waiting for the kingdom to come, I'm reminded that God's
not the one who needs a change of heart and mind. We are--that's why
we have to pray without ceasing, to bring ourselves in line with what
God seeks to accomplish. When you relate this to children's suffering,
normally at the hands of adults (whether intentionally or not), it
makes for a powerful message. To minister to/with and on behalf of
children, we have to commit ourselves to changing (letting God change)
whatever is inside of us that allows us to feel comfortable with the
status quo. Kids cannot change this for themselves.
I think this quote originated with Bonhoeffer, but my dad always put
it this way: Whatever Judgment Day looks like, I believe we will be
asked, "What happened to the children on your watch?"
I'm completely on the wrong week so probably won't get to see what any
of you write!
Laura in TX
I forgot to mention that I really like the idea I read at textweek.com,
by Charles Hoffacker, saying that instead of thinking of the judge as
God and ourselves as the widow, that the opposite is actually true.
God is the one who finally wears us down! Thy kingdom come, indeed.
Laura in TX
I love Frederick Buechner's comment about this passage... "Be
impotunate, Jesus says---not, one assumes, because you have to beat a
path to God's door before he will open it, but because until you beat
a path maybe there's no way of getting to your door. "Ravish myu
hear," john Donne wrote. But God will not usually ravish. He will only
court."
God's door to our heart is our beating a path to him!
I like Frederick Buechner's comment about this passage. "Be
importunate, Jesus says--- not, one assumes, because you have to beat
a path to God's door before he will open it, but because until you
beat a path maybe there's no way of getting to your door. "Ravish my
heart," John Donne wrote. But God will not usually ravish. He will
only court."
Dear friend,
The question, "when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on
earth?" has haunted me for years. We want to say "Yes!" so we can feel
good and comfortable with ourselves. But then again the Bible rarely
makes us feel good about who we are within our own nature. The
question has led me in the past to answer with "no he won't find
faith". But how can that be with churches on every corner, Christian
radio and TV and all the Christian music and videos one could ever
possibly hope for?
If he doesn't find faith, what will he find?
Grace and peace, Mike in Sunshine
Laura in TX - hadn't checked Textweek yet, but ...
while I like the idea you posted, about US being the judge and GOD
being the widow, I wonder about v. 5
"I will grant her justice ..." hmmmm.... I'm tripping up on the word
"justice." How is it that we grant God justice? Or am I pushing it too
far?
Sally
then again ... v. 2 says "a judge who neither feared God nor had
respect for people ..." So, if we're considering God as the judge (the
other way around), it's THAT that makes no sense.
Sally
I'm leaning towards the "if even this nincompoop will do it, then OF
COURSE God will do it."
recall the way Jesus used the allegory of when your child asks for a
piece of fish, you won't give him/her a scorpion instead ... so how
much more will God grant your petition if even you wicked people know
how to be merciful.
For now, at least, I'm going to lean towards the "God is greater than
humans" theme.
Sally
From the book, Illustrations for Biblical Preaching, Michael Green,
Ed. 1989, p275.
There was a tavern that was being built in a town that had previously
been dry. In opposition to the tavern, a group of Christians began an
all night prayer meeting and asked God to intervene.
Lightning struck the tavern and burned it to the ground.
The owner then brought a lawsuit against the church holding them
responsible. The Christians hired a lawyer and denied responsibility.
In response to this unusual scenario, the judge said, “No matter how
this case comes out, one thing is clear. The tavern owner believes in
prayer and the Christians do not!”
Rev NB
Is Jesus REALLY saying that his Father is like an unjust judge who
only hears our prayers if we nag him for ever? Is God that indifferent
to our cry, to our need? Or is he simply saying that in THIS life, if
you want something, and you first fail, keep at it, until the forces
of evil can no longer contain the petition.
Is not this what faith truly is - trusting that good will triumph over
evil and that we must stay the course, as Christian people, if we
truly believe that how we are living is according to our Lord's will?
tom in ga
In an adult class this past Sunday we were wrestling with the age old
question "Why do bad things happen to good people" and other
variations thereof. We got hung up on the statement people often make
in the face of a loved ones death-"Why did God do this?" Or "why did
God allow this to happen". We all agreed that we did not believe that
God causes suffering and we talked about free will and how it all fits
together. Then one person asked- "so why do we pray?". Now I am faced
with this text on imploring God. What do we do with this one? Jill in
Jersey, usually a Saturday night lurker on DPS
Interesting idea about God being the widow - God works on us until we
finally "give in to God" or "let go and let God"? If God is the judge,
I always find this little "thorn" - does God simply finally give in to
us so we will shut up? revjaw
laura in tx, sally, and others:
are WE able to answer prayer?
wow, this is really blowing my mind! my inital thought is, yes, with
the help of the Holy Spirit.
can we answer God's persistant prayer for justice? yes, i believe we
can; again with the help of the HS.
this is an interesting take on this parable. i don't know if this is
what it's trying to say, but i do think it's preachable.
the traditional understanding of this parable is that God is the
judge, but even bad judges can do justice... so if an unjust judge can
grant justice... how much more can God grant justice...
but, it's jesus' last comment: "And yet, when the Son of Man comes,
will he find faith on earth?" that makes me wonder if this "stretch"
couldn't in fact be truer than the traditional understanding.
what are signs of our faith? they go beyond mike sunshine's examples
of churches and christian broadcast outlets. true signs of faith are
good works.
one of my favorite quotes is: "faith is not belief in spite of the
evidence, but a life lived in scorn of the consequences."
i need to keep thinking about this some more...
God's peace, christine at the shore
What do you do with a congregation whose prayers have been answered
(younger people and children present in growing numbers) who now want
to say, "Pastor and elders you don't care about us!" KC
I must confess, it is easier for me to preach to the people of God
rather than praying for the people of God.
Oh, let's not be pious about it and drop the phrase "people of God"
from the next sentence. It's hard for me to pray. Oh yes, I do pray,
bits and pieces lifted up to God in the shower, on the freeway, when I
am alone and talking to God, when I think of someone, and when I need
helps. So perhaps I "pray always" as verse 1 said, but the problem I
have is "losing heart".
Jesus started the parable with describing the judge as "neither feared
God nor had respect for people", an important fact that he underlined
it again in verse 4.
If you have ever lived under the communist regime like I do, then you
would understand what the situation Jesus was talking about. We've
learned to never appeal to the official authority for anything, they
don't care! The head-honchos are out for themselves, if you want to
move them, you will need to "grease the wheel" with gifts, bribe,
favor, or any other manipulations. What chance would a poor widow had
to appeal for justice? None!
Yet, she "kept coming to him". Was she stupid or just plain naive?
Don't she know that her appeals would fall on deaf ears?
Or perhaps she was just being faithful (a person full of faith).
Somehow she might have believe that there is justice, that "God has
eyes" (a Vietnamese proverb), and that she will get her justice.
[Interesting take here: What if the "pray always" was about her own
personal prayers before coming to the judge, and the "not lose heart"
referred to her action of appeal to the judge?]
At the end, she got what she asked for. She got it because she was
persistent (v.3 "kept coming", v.4 "for a while he refused", v.5
"keeps bothering", "wear me out", "continually coming", v.7 "cry day
and night")
But will we get answers just because we are persistent? (May be I
should start asking for the lottery.) Nope. The text underscored the
subtle theme of "justice" (Gk. lit. "bring out the rightness"), so it
matters a lot on knowing God's righteousness in order pray
accordingly. [Another interesting take: May be that's why v.7 talks
about God's "chosen ones" (Gk. electos)...]
There are many God's chosen ones. I am one of them. But not all of
them would "cry to him day and night" to right all the wrong things we
see, just like me. We gave up. We thought why it's matter to fight the
system. They are not going to change. We are small in numbers, just a
remnant left. We are tired. We just want to go home in heaven where
the ultimate justice can be found. We are frustrated; let's do
something instead of sitting there praying. We learned how to live
with unright things; oh well, someone have to make the best of their
circumstances anyway.
That's why Jesus said, "When the Son of Man comes, will he find faith
on earth?"
Lord, change my attitude in prayer and help me to be more persistent.
Help me to be one of those chosen one who cry day and night before you
when I see so much un-right things around me. Help me to be willing to
believe that yes, I can change the unchangeable; not because of I can
move anything on earth, but because I can move Your hands in heaven.
Coho, Midway City. (Not preaching this week, so I may be back here for
more...)
You are a wonderful community, enriching all who read your comments.
Thank you!
I'm not a preacher, but this week is my turn to prepare readings for "Kairos"
a small faith community in Rochester, NY. These pages are a great
help.
For me, prayer is a continuing state that not only includes meditation
about all that crosses my mind's path but also includes whatever I am
doing. It is an active state.
I feel close to God when my grandson (4) says "Grandpa let's go out
and dig."
Peace, Ray G. from the North Coast
I'm with Mike in Sunishie ... Much of how I read this passage comes
from the last "will I find faith?" I want to yell yes also. But maybe
that's one of the points, it's a challenge to the disciples and
humanity to keep faith through prayer. Sociologists quantify
"religiosity" by how often you participate in a religous activity,
maybe this is Jesus trying to help us put an action to an abstract,
faith, by coupling the last statement with prayer and the need for
prayer. But I'm no pastor I am just trying to fill the pulpit and
allow GOd to use me in this capacity this week. Matthew in Texas
Jill in jersey, God always answers prayer. When we pray for someone to
be healed and they die, I believe God has healed by giving them a
brand new body, one with out pain, without tears. Prayer changes us,
not God. The more we pray, the more weeeeeeee are changed, to be like
Him. LS
jill in jersey,
(are you an ltsp grad? just wondered if you were who i think you ight
be.)
we pray because God commands it of us. (2nd commandment...if we aren't
supposed to take the name of the Lord in vain then we are supposed to
use God's name in the right way, ie: prayer, praise, thanksgiving)
so, we don't pray to get stuff, but in order to be in relationship
with God. hum, that makes the idea that God is the widow and we are
the judge even more credible. God wants us to listen to him and keeps
at us until we figure that out.
God's peace, christine at the shore
KC,
I'd like to give my two cents, but I'm not sure what you're asking.
Who is saying, "You don't care about us"?
Michelle
Lots to ponder this week. I heard a tv preacher (not the flashy kind)
say God had 3 answers to prayer: Yes, wait, and I have something even
better in mind. lkinhc
Worship must be our first act of justice. Justice must saturate the
praxis of worship before we can ever hope to change the world. If, in
our ritual lives, we revere our religious conditioning, our nostalgic
interests, our temporal attachments, or our congregational sensitivity
at the expense of the unchurched, then we become like the dishonest
judge who constantly judges in favor of ‘self’. Paul
KC;
During my first full-time call, the church I was at grew-it almost
doubled in size. In essence, they got rid of me.
There is an old Scottish proverb "Be careful what you pray for,
because God may give it to you." The people who have been in the
congregation for a long time are worried about losing their place- and
if this growth has made the church grow from a church that needed one
kind of leadership (which the "old heads" remember) to one that needs
another kind of leadership, there is even more stress.
My advice is simple and is probably too simplistic. Pray for them. You
may be disappointed in their response, thinking about all the times
that the people said, "Pastor, we need to grow' or "Pastor, we need
some new people" You, or someone else who is a respected church
leader, can minister to them by showing them all the things they have
done to help the church grow, and help them work through their fear of
change. They need to be gently reminded that there is no growth
without change.
I don't know if this is possible, but the more you can get old and new
working together, the better it will be
And please remember that this is only a season in the life of your
church- that it will not last forever.
Grace and Peace;
Revgilmer in texarkana
christine at the shore
I agree - we are often called to be the answer to our own prayers.
Jesus prayed His followers would be united and He is the means of that
unity.
We pray for someone who is poor and end up giving them what they need.
I am convinced that last statement of Jesus, "... when the Son of Man
comes, will he find faith on earth?" is the lynch-pin of this passage
and I mean to find out what it means - to find out what He meant by
it.
JG in WI
Rev NB -
That's one of the best illustrations I've ever heard!!!! I don't
usually go for them unless I know some personal connection to them,
but that one's goooooood.
Sally in GA
KC -
another thing you can do is help the 99 other sheep while the pastor
is trying to make sure the 1 is well-incorporated into the fold. I can
understand how your pastor is distracted with the newbies; s/he
doesn't want their interest, attendance, and membership to be a flash
in the pan. S/He'll have to spend time helping them mature enough to
be stable.
Sally in GA
last one ...
Coho - thank you for that powerful post. I didn't know you were from
another country. I just figured "Midway City" was somewhere in, like,
Kansas or something! Still, your needing to actually LIVE this parable
gives it a depth I hadn't experienced before.
.........
Verse 7: "will God delay long in helping his chosen ones?" - I
disagree with those in the "God answers prayer" category for this
pericope because this promise of Jesus is often not true in real life,
at least as we interpret it. For example: I've known people who've
lost their faith because their saintly, devout loved one suffered a
long, arduous death - or got a disease while being in a "low risk"
category (a nonsmoker dying of lung cancer, eg).
It doesn't hold water as tightly as we wish it would.
These last few weeks have really tested and tried my concept of who
God is, how God is, and how I/we respond to God. This is yet another
one.
When you get right down into the dirty work, you find that what the
Bible is is inconsistent with what we believe about God and no amount
of creativity will make it consistent. So, my take for the last couple
weeks is to communicate what is surprising about the Gospel and
another way to look at the pericope than what we've always quickly
presumed.
Who says the widow was asking for anything just in the first place?
Just because she was a widow, does that automatically make her right?
I know plenty of widows who are mean and hateful.
This may be a case of one unjust person out-lasting, out-witting,
out-playing another unjust person.
All I'm saying is, scratch the surface a bit ...
and yet, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on earth? ---
the words "and yet" are giving me a problem: they don't seem to fit
grammatically, or logically, with the rest of the sentence.
Greek scholars???? any input????
Sally in GA
Dear friends,
I found the study of this text to be challenging. Of the few
commentaries I have, most had basically the same things to say about
it. Also it does not appear that any group or individual has taken
this passage as a central text for any doctrine or practice we might
consider unique or strange. So I/we are left to take a straight
forward passage and make interesting and applicable to life.
I am sticking with an expositional form. For whatever reason, my
congregations are eating them up. For me they aren't nearly as
challenging or satisfying but then again it might not be about me. I
do sometimes feel I come across as being a verbal commentary.
I know that there are a number of entries this week about we being the
unjust judge or God is the widow or other such view. I outright
rejected this as the text itself does not support that reading.
With much fear and trepidation of subjecting a rough draft sermon
several days before the event I offer it to you for your review. If in
the end I don't like it, I have time to change it. You can find the
sermon at:
http://www.rfci.net/bagpiper/20041017.htm
Grace and peace, Mike
It seems these last few weeks have all been talking about what is
right to do. The apostles ask for increased faith, but Jesus says what
will you do with increased, or additional faith, besides a lot of
things that will take you away from the work you are already doing
with the faith you have, which is enough. And then the lepers who go
off to show them selves to the priest and then the one gives thanks,
and this week the widow is following the proper channels to get things
done. Is it that we must do what is right?
This weeks lesson makes me think of the invention of the post it note.
A wonderful story of something that did not turn out the way it was
suppose to. The inventor of the glue used in the notes was trying to
make a super sticky glue, but came up with a glue that did not spread,
and thus was not super sticky, but removable. He did not want to give
up on finding a use for it though. to make a long story short, another
inventor needed sticky bookmarks for his hymnal and thought of the
glue from the first inventor. the rest as they say is history. This
all took about a 6-8 year time frame, and was still always met with
opposition. Think of how different your life would be with out post it
notes. Do not lose heart. Maybe the faith we have is God continually
coming to us and telling us he loves us, and wants us to be in
relationship with him.
And why shoudl we pray, not only because the 2nd commandment tells us
to not use the name of God in vain, and thus should use it properly,
but because Jesus prayed. More in the gospel of Luke than in any other
Gospel. If it is good enough for Jesus, should it not be good enough
for me?
asacredrebel - Hollidaysburg, PA
Sally in GA the word used for and yet is actually but... Here is a
listing out of my Greek dictionary (1) an adverb used as a
conjunction; (a) as an adversative equivalent to but (LU 23.28); (b)
predominately used to restrict a previous statement nevertheless,
however, in spite of that (LU 22.42); (c) used to break off a
discussion and point out parenthetically what was important in it in
any case, however, only one thing (PH 3.16; RV 2.25); (d) used to add
in an exception except that (AC 20.23); (2) as an improper preposition
with the genitive except, besides (MK 12.32)
So from reading this it is suppose to stand out maybe to break off
from God will answer prays, or listen to the requests, AND YET when
Jesus comes back, will he find The Faith on earth?
Don't know if that helps...
asacredrebel
Christopher Reed died over the weekend...
many people looked to him for HOPE when it comes to Spinal Cord injury
research...
As a spokesperson, this "man of steel" was relentless in what he knew
was the right thing... he helped the 'cause more than anyone, not just
for himself but for children and others who are marginalized by their
disability. He made great strides, if not physically, by his
convictions... much like the widow in the Gospel for this week.
Unfortunately he didn't get to hear that he had worn down the judge by
his persistance. Then again, perhaps he does hear...
Blessed be his memory,
pulpitt in ND
Dear Pulpit in ND,
Christipher Reeves may not be the best contemporary example or a poor
widow with only a righteous claim. His plight was sympathetic to be
sure but his advocacy of embrionic stem cell research was in the end
selfish. But to gain from that science life has to be created and then
be destroyed in order to offer even the potential to help someone
else. Same goes for Michael J. Fox in his struggle with Parkinson's
Disease. Both figures are also aligned with political campaigns.
Surely there are better examples to use.
Grace and peace, Mike in Sunshine
The last part of verse 8 has also haunted me over the years.
Certainly, I have thought, when the "son of man" returns, the world
will be in a horrendous shape. Perhaps, I speculated, it will be a
veritable Sodom and Gomorrah, filled with unbridled lust and
unhospitable selfishness. Perhaps this will be true, but upon my
recent reading of the text, I have envisioned something even more
frightening to me. I realized that Christ may return to a world when
good and godly people will be found on Sunday mornings singing
half-heartedly about themes that no longer excite their lives, that
ministers will be preaching texts that have long since lost their grip
on their own lives, that we will be found merely "going through the
motions" of a faith that is mainly an artifact of our once vibrant
lives, rather than a living relationship that fuels our minds and
hearts. The question still haunts me. When the Son of Man returns,
will he find faith -- in me?
Bern in KY
Bern in KY:
Now you quit preaching and gone to meddlin. Blessings and keep up the
good work
Pr. Bill on the frontier
Sally in GA, thanks. Here's some more ;-)
God knows we need a hand, even to pray. In Romans 8:26-5-27 we read;
“Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness; for we do not know how
to pray as we ought, but that very Spirit intercedes with sighs too
deep for words.
And God, who searches the heart, knows what is the mind of the Spirit,
because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of
God.”
We pray because there is action to prayer. The great Anglican
ethicist, Right Reverend Kenneth Kirk, Bishop of Oxford, said in the
mid 20th Century:
“Prayer is our service of humility and patronage. Thank you Lord for
giving me the opportunity to serve you”.
The renowned Christian Optimist, William Arthur Ward, summed up prayer
nicely when he said:
“The pulse of prayer is praise. The heart of prayer is gratitude. The
voice of prayer is obedience. The arm of prayer is service.”
And, as the 17th century Anglican Priest and spiritual writer once
said: “To pray is to open oneself up to the possibility of sainthood,
to the possibility of becoming set on fire by the Spirit.”
Rev NB
Hi DPS Folk, This is my first time posting to the site, but have
enjoyed reading your comments over the past few weeks and thought I
would add my own to this week's thread.
I think that two fundamental questions can serve as "hermeneutical
keys" in considering this text:
1) What does this parable say about the kingdom of God? The Pharisees
have just asked Jesus this question (17:20 ff). Indeed, the entire
gospel of Luke is filled with language about the kingdom--what it will
look like, how it will come, when it will come, who embodies it, etc.
My exegesis of this text places the widow as the exemplar of what the
kingdom will look like. The widow's sociopolitical situation was as
bad as it gets (see the Law and the Prophets for some insight into the
widow's vulnerability...Exodus, Deuteronomy, Psalms, Jeremiah). And
yet, no matter how much time passes or how dire it gets the kingdom
comes like this widow--it keeps coming, battering down anything in its
way, pouring in with hope and justice and renewed life for the most
vulnerable among us.
And question 2) What does the faith the Jesus seeks from his people
look like? Again, I think the widow points the way for us. Time and
again in Luke, people are "made well" because of their faith. These
people who are "made well" are always on the edges of society--a
hemorraging woman, a paralytic, a disheveled woman washing Jesus'
feet, a little girl, a leper. And this widow. They are on the edges of
everything acceptable and "good" in their society, yet THEY are the
ones whose faith is held up by Jesus as that which brings healing and
wellness.
The widow, as do most of these other Lukan characters, will not be
bound by social norms and niceties and instead demands that her plight
be recognized. Her bold persistence points to a new reality--a reality
inaugurated by God's reign where victims claim their rights and seek
justice. Her shocking boldness, her unsettling action...THIS is
continual prayer. THIS is faith. THIS is the appropriate response to
the coming kingdom.
Yikes. A little long and rambling, but those are my thoughts, for what
they're worth. :) Peace, Heidi
This fits better with the epistle reading, but since you've brought up
stem cell research...
interesting how many folks in my church are staunch Republicans, from
the Christian right, standing strongly for the war, are pro-life, etc
... and still use the stem cells when it affects their lives
personally. I can count 3.
no name
NB and Sally:
That's such a great illustration on prayer. My original reading of it
is that it came from a New England town and that the judge's decision
was in favor of the tavern owner for exactly those reasons, that
obviously the tavern owner believed the power of the prayer of the
church moreso than the church itself did. I don't think this is an
urban myth, but couldn't swear to it.
Dear No Name,
Let me point to the preciseness of my words. I did not refer to stem
cell research in general. I refered to embrionic stem cell research.
Companies in America have unrestricted freedom when it comes to adult
stem cell research. The only limitation put forward by the present
federal administration on embrionic stem cell research is federal
funding. So companies and universities may still sink any amount of
private funding they want into that avenue. Christopher Reeves was and
Michael J. Fox is for unlimited federal funding for embrionic stem
cell research. To create new lines requires life be started and
stopped for the benifit of another. Slavery in any form is evil. This
is the worst of all but the easiest to overlook since they will never
be able to voice their objections.
My blessings are on adult stem cell research to the point that I am
registered to donate stem cells and bone marrow. I have literally but
my butt in the sling when I donated bone marrow August 2003. So this
is not theoretical.
So did the three you mention receive the blessings garnished from
adult stem cell research or embrionic stem cell research? Yes there is
a difference how we advance medically. And the very tone of your
comments lays bare your own political bias. It is my hope that I can
preach a sermon that is useful for Democrat, Republican and
Independent.
As for the gospel text I simply made the point that there could be
better examples. Christopher Reeves was a healthy wealthy actor and
athlete before his accident. Michael J. Fox was a very successful
actor. Both had access to the legal apperatus and health care of their
day. I am as confused about using these examples as I was at the
comparison of Mother Theresa and Princess Diane. One had everything in
this world. The other had the clothes on her back. But the truly great
one got very little press.
Grace and peace, Mike in Sunshine
Um... his name is Christoper Reeve ... he is sometimes confused with
George Reeves who also played Superman. I also am saddened at his
passing. He certainly contributed far more in his "unchosen" career
than in his chosen one. There's certainly a sermon there - another
time.
JG in WI
I may be way off base here, but I see so much of Revelation in this
text. I see it as either 1) a prediction of trials and oppressions to
come to the disciples and later, the Church, or else 2) as written
after the fact of the persecutions of the Christians by Rome. Anyway,
I see it as Jesus telling them that when things get rough (and they
will), pray with the faith that God will make all things right in the
end. A lesser god wouldn't care much that you were suffering, and
would only help you out in order to benefit himself, but YOUR God does
care, and takes note of what is happening to you and what you pray
about. So keep praying, keep believing in the Lordship of Jesus no
matter how difficult life becomes, because your God is listening and
will vindicate you. And when Jesus returns, hopefully he will find
that people were living in faith even through the severe trials they
were put through, including martyrdom.
Does this make an ounce of sense to anybody else? It's pretty clear to
me, but I've been sick for a few weeks now and thinking may be
clouded.
KHC
I see this passage far more about the relationship between justice and
faith than about prayer. People who think because they pray constantly
they have faith, might be surprised to find that it is the ones who
balance prayer for justice with action for justice who are ultimately
saved. I'm using this as a stewardship sermon. We in the USA have been
blessed with wealth, power, resources, and freedom. How are we being
just stewards of these gifts? When we spend half our budget on
maintaining a 'way too big' church building and grudgingly give a
pitance to build churches, schools and hospitals in Africa, no matter
how constantly we pray for justice, our hearts and our faith are in
the wrong place. Martie in NY
Amen to the thoughts of Mike in Sunshine. I too am dismayed at those
our contemporary culture lifts up as "icons." I was quite baffled by
the incongruous exposure the media gave Mother Teresa, versus the
magnanimous coverage of Princess Di's death.
Thanks for your articulate clarification on the current day issues.
I am a first time preacher and was feeling quite overwhelmed with this
passage. I've decided to center my sermon around the idea of justice
rather than just talking about prayer. I think it's interesting that
of all things she's asking for, she's asking for justice. I think that
the other part of this though is what we do in addition to prayer. Is
prayer enough? In James 2:14, he says that "faith without works is
dead." It's important to pray. It's important to be persistent because
that persistence is an act of faith, but it's also important to put
that faith into action.
Amanda, nervous first time preacher
I too, am a first-time contributor. This is only my second week
consulting this web-site and I'm enjoying reading everyone's thoughts
on the lectionary. Thanks everyone!
I think Heidi is truly onto the point of the text. In fact, I believe
this might be one of the "case in point" examples of a poor chapter
division. It seems to me that, as Heidi pointed out, the talk is all
about the Kingdom and the return of the Son of Man. Verse 8 speaks to
this - and yet, in order to have inclusio, we must back the pericope
up to 17:20 (which is not included in any of the lectionary readings).
We are not to lose heart despite all the evil that surrounds us, and
the return of the Son seems to be delayed. No matter how vulnerable we
may feel at times (the widow was the most vulnerable in her society)we
are to persevere in our quest for justice.
Jesus turns the question in 17:20 of WHEN is the Kingdom coming into a
question of HOW will the people of God respond - will we be faithful?
Janet in PA
Hi Jill! Just wanted to say...so glad I'm not the only one who writes
my sermons on Saturday night! :)
And everyone, had a very wonderful epiphany about prayer come to me
through the mouth of an extremely unlikely person in my internship
church (isn't that always the way these things happen? :) ). She said,
and I agree, that the point of prayer is the act of letting go of
control of a situation. It is the act of truly giving a situation to
God. The problem is, because we come to God with our own agenda, we
look at prayer as something we must "do" in order that our envisioned
outcome is realized...so, really, when we pray this way we have not
given up control at all. We are still acting as though we are in
control: if I just pray hard enough, in the right way, then it will
work out right. God is not the unjust judge. But even so, sometimes we
do have to pray without ceasing...not because God likes to toy with
us, but because sometimes it takes a few seemingly unanswered prayers
for us to finally let go of a situation and give it to God. It was
really an epiphany for me, but I'm not sure it is translating well
here. Hope it makes sense. :)
Dawn in the Mountains
Hmmmm...concerned that my last post may have crossed that ugly line
over to "we don't have to do anything in this life, just pray and God
will do it all." That, of course, is BS. The greatest prayers are
prayed with hands and feet.
Dawn in the Mountains.
Mike in Sunshine, Though I hesitate to characterize as selfish someone
I never met, I too bristle when people call Christopher Reeve "heroic"
simply because he has pursued a cure for his own disease. I find far
more heroic people like his wife, for example, who has stood unsung
beside him through it all. And people who rise above their illness to
do something utterly unselfish for their fellow human
beings...something that holds absolutely no benefit for themselves
whatsoever.
Dawn in the Mountains
This passage appears in the last of the synoptics. By that time, the
church was struggling with the delay of the parousia and the
persecution of the church. Will the Son of Man help? Come, Lord Jesus!
And quickly he will come. We are enjoined to continue to keep faith
alive. The worst irony would be that Jesus would come and we who had
asked for his help had given up on him before he arrived.
Pat in NJ
One more...
One of the greatest lessons I ever got about prayer came from Mark ch.
9, where the father brings his demon-possessed son to Jesus. I realize
it is unwise to allow one gospel to inform another, but what I learned
then does inform my reading of this passage. In it, the father is in
anguish, has already brought his son to the disciples, who have failed
to cure him. He says to Jesus, "If you can, please help us." Jesus
says, "If? There is no if. Of course I can. Of course I want to. All
things are possible for the one who believes." The father cries out,
"I do believe! Help my unbelief." Later, in explaining it all to the
disciples, Jesus tells them "this kind can only come out by prayer."
What I learned is this: the only person who prayed in that passage was
the father, and all he prayed was "I believe! Help my unbelief." With
his imperfect faith, Jesus was able to do the healing he longed to do:
of the boy's body, and of the father's heart. There is no "if." God is
always waiting, longing to heal. There are no requirements for
believing fully enough, praying often enough or in exactly the right
way. But by approaching God in prayer with our whole self, raw and
honest, confused and yearning, we open the door to that healing. Like
the lepers who cried out "Mercy!" rather than "Unclean!" and found
healing for their bodies...and like the one who abandoned all
pretense, all propriety, and fell down on his face in thanksgiving,
thereby finding healing for his heart. When we come to him, God
doesn't wait: "he will quickly grant justice."
Dawn in the Mountains
On the topic of Christopher Reeve and his advocacy. I serve on a local
hospital board and had the opportunity to hear and meet Mr. Reeve. He
recognized that paraplegics have very few people to advocate for them.
When he spoke at a gathering here in NJ to affect local statewide
legislation for stem cell research, he spoke about using unfertilized
material. I don't know if that makes a difference ethically for those
who are oppositional to the research. I was most touched about the
fact that he lauded those in the audience, many paraplegics and
quadriplegics who live without the wealth and help that he and Dana
have had. His fame has brought him lots of volunteer assistance and he
recognized that many paralyzed people stay positive and find ways to
contribute to the world around them with much less help and
encouragement. He knew that if he did not use his assets to benefit
those others who were suffering, he would be truly selfish. To be
silent because he did not feel well, because he had already been up in
the chair sitting on his bedsores all day, because he did not look as
well as he had when he was healthy and a handsome star, that was an
option he rejected. He suffered from serious depression at the first
and moved on to try to be positive for himself and his family, and for
others in the same situation. The effect he had on teen paraplegics in
the room that night who had been injured in sports accidents was
immeasurable.
Pat in NJ
Sorry about the multiple posts. :( Now I know how you all did that!
I'll try to avoid it in the future. Pat
amanda,
don't forget to pray as you prepare your sermon. (good advise for us
all...including myself).
one more piece of advice: the first time i preached was in college and
my text was on the prodigal son. it was a powerful story for me,
because i had spent some time as a prodigal myself. i was really into
my sermon when i went to flip the page of my manuscript and realized i
had mixed up my pages. so, always check the pages of your manuscript
before getting into the pulpit.
may God bless you with the Holy Spirit to PREACH THE WORD. you seem to
be on the right track. let us know how it goes.
God's peace, christine at the shore
Sally,
Sorry for my ESL; I grew up in Vietnam, but now I live in the States.
Midway City is 15 minutes away from Disneyland in southern California.
As for your problem with V. 7, it might help to keep in mind the
justice theme of the passage. It 's not just any prayer.
Coho.
