Scripture Text (NRSV)
Luke 17:5-10
17:5 The apostles said to the Lord, "Increase our faith!"
17:6 The Lord replied, "If you had faith the size of a mustard seed, you could say
to this mulberry tree, 'Be uprooted and planted in the sea,' and it would obey you.
17:7 "Who among you would say to your slave who has just come in from plowing or
tending sheep in the field, 'Come here at once and take your place at the table'?
17:8 Would you not rather say to him, 'Prepare supper for me, put on your apron and
serve me while I eat and drink; later you may eat and drink'?
17:9 Do you thank the slave for doing what was commanded?
17:10 So you also, when you have done all that you were ordered to do, say, 'We are
worthless slaves; we have done only what we ought to have done!'"
Comments:
What would we do with such faith? Make trees jump and mountains dance? Use it to make sure others see our great faith? Such faith would become pride.
Perhaps the following verses remind us that we are only slaves - and God is God. God makes trees jump and mountains dance. We are to be God's people/servants/slaves and in that role we find our place as mustard seeds. Lyle Predmore
I would like to hang in our sanctuary large photographs/posters of people of the world to enhance our celebration of World Communion Sunday. Any ideas where I could find such a thing (at a reasonable cost)?
cnd
Found one solution to the people of the world poster search: heiferproject.org has downloadable images in their "media" section. Other suggestions are still welcome. cnd
The apostle's say "Increae our faith."
It seems that Jesus' answer indicates that increase comes by obedience to his call and commission.
Pr.del in Ia
The question is about faith not about syscamore trees. The Apaostles want their faith increased. It can't be done. Faith is a fruit of a relationship with Jesus. When you are in His Presence you have all the faith you need. Being faitful servants won't get you anywhere. The benefits of being in His Presence produces faith.
Jesus sounds annoyed at his disciples' request for additional megabytes of faith. He started the numbers game himself, however. "Even if somebody wrongs you seven times a day, and each time returns to apologize, you must keep on forgiving," Jesus said (Lk 17.4). Three times they might have handled, or even five. But seven? Sorry, Jesus. That's beyond capacity. How about un upgrade?
Jesus uses the mustard seed analogy to teach that faith and faithfulness aren't matters of quantity and size but of relationship and identity. We glimpse this truth about faith in our English words 'believe' and 'creed.' "To believe" comes from an old, Anglo-Saxon word for being in love. "Creed" derives from 'credo,' Latin for "I give my heart."
Frederick Niedner
This is our "warm up the Sanctuary sunday". We have to get new boilers. So this sunday is the day we have ask all to turn in pledges and checks. I think that I can safely talk about how our funding for the boilers is a way of making a seed bed for the planting of new seeds of faith. Planting seeds is our mission. But I agree this is a pretty harsh passage. Nancy-Wi
There are certain duties that we know are ours. It is no longer slave\master stuff, but citizen stuff.
It is our duty to know the traffic laws ( when we come to a street to know which person has the right of way.
It is our duty to know what is not acceptable when boarding a plane.
It is our duty to get our taxes in on time.
It is our duty to care for our aging parents.
It is our duty to tip the waiter/wattress.
Therefore if saved by grace, prevenient grace, it is our duty to grow in God's Grace, and understand that Grace more and more as we seek to live out our lives, and if we seek God’s way first (and that means hard concentration,prayers of confession,steady Scripture study etc.), then by our faith and God's guidance, God will give the increase.
Shalom
Bammamma
"Increase our faith", request the apostles.
It's like a child asking God "make me taller". the child wants to be as big as an NBA/WNBA player, overnight. Growth requires time, patience, good food and periodic check-ups. It will happen, but not all at once. Growth spurts and plateaus trade places. It's when nothing seems to be happening that we get all nervous that things aren't going right. But it's part of the process, too.
I get suspicious when I hear somebody had one particular moment when they suddenly got faith. It's fairly commonly spoken about around here. Some got it on an Emmaus weekend, others got it
at a revival. I calm down if I realize they are saying that event was the spark that got them moving in the direction of building a relationship with Jesus Christ. Faith takes time to build and to find its way into our hearts. You don't just "get faith" like you get a booster shot and be done with it.
"Increase our faith". Teach us to pray. Teach us
to patiently wait for an answer. Teach us how to be compassionate and forgiving. Show us by your example, teacher (Pastor) and lead us into new ways of encountering God. Help us incorporate all this into our daily lives and to do it all for the right reasons - to glorify God.
The question for me is which comes first - the acts of faithful living or the faith itself? Does it matter?
KHC
Few people I know think they have enough faith.
This lack of faith troubles many but for different reasons. Here are a few sources of worry: 1) With more faith I could handle life more easily. 2) With more faith I would be in less danger of missing salvation. 3) With more faith I would simply be closer to God, and I am miserable apart from him. 4) Bad things would not happen to me if I had more faith.
By contrast, some do not worry about their lack of faith. They instead trust God to make up the slack. For them, salvation comes not necessarily by "a faith IN Christ" but rather by "the faith OF Christ."
Unconnected thoughts:
Barth: sin = unbelief
Bonnhoeffer: faith = obedience
Mark 9:23, 24:
Jesus: "All things are possible for those who believe."
Father in tears: "I believe, Lord; help my unbelief!"
DSS
I have a cleaning woman who also has a regular shift job in a factory. She can't make it on her factory paycheck, I do a poor job of keeping house. Before she comes to my house I insist she check in with her teenage son and spend time with him, have something to eat, enjoy her coffee and put her feet up for awhile. I thank her for her good work at keeping my house nice, and I pay her double the hourly wage she receives at her regular job. I reward faithfulness in real ways. She never expected to get treated this way when she signed on. She expected to come to her second job exhausted, hungry and getting paid the minimum. Surprise! You should have seen her face when I laid down my rules, and again when she opened her first envelope!
God gives us the unexpected benefits. If we think we deserve them, we are no longer candidates for the extra surprise. It's when we come expecting just the basics that we find out the blessings in store. Faith can grow as God and servant show each other faithfulness.
No Name in Midland
Maybe I see the connection only because this incident happened this morning and it's still ringing in my head, but ... considering that pastors are servants (read: slaves), and that many of our congregants think we're THEY'RE servants (at least in my church, the folks don't see their place in the running of the church because they've been so used to being worked for) ... let me relate something happened this morning.
I'll just call her "M," and though she's not antagonistic (no, really, she's not - it's very mild and with no sub rosa) and not even remotely underhanded, she is a big control freak. We've had a few go-arounds over her coming into the office and "requesting" my undivided attention. I was doing something this morning (as always, I'm the only one in the office, the door is open) and she came in with good news that she was very excited about. I looked away briefly to find a stopping place and said, "I'm listening, go ahead." She said, "No, it's better if you look at me." I said, "I'm listening." and she said, "I look at you when you talk to me, I expect you to look at me when I talk to you." I said, "Yes, and I really was in the middle of something!" She said, "OK, we'll wait till you're done."
I don't know if she'll get the message, and other folks resent it when I close the office door (after all other people need to use the copier, etc)...
Setting boundaries ... still, I feel like the servant who worked all day and then has to put on my apron and serve others while they eat and drink at the end of that long, hard day. And then not so much as thanked.
I mean, she's a docent at the botanical gardens. Would I waltz in and start talking to her during a tour and smilingly insist that she drop everything she's doing immediately and insist on her undivided attention?
Just because we're the servants doesn't mean our congregations are the masters.
Thanks for letting me (at least) vent... don't know if it'll preach or not.
And also ... don't we expect our eternal reward to be just that - a "reward" for doing what God asks of us? Nothing like riding your horse hard and putting it away wet.
Sally in GA
It seems Jesus is telling the disciples that they have enough faith already. The probably believe that don't have enough faith to do what Jesus has asked, but Jesus says, you just do what you do and without thanks or reward, you live into the faith that is needed.
Preparing a meal here can be an interesting like to World Communion Sunday. How many churches will be making the same meal all over the world?
RB in CA
FC and OMG-
i posted my resource list along with a worksheet that i used to talk about "Christ and Culture." i would welcome other resources to add to my list, should i teach this again.
niebuhrian in va
Sally, from one Dr. Phil fan to another, last season DP was working with a family going through a nasty divorce. On one episode the wife demanded DrP hold her hand to assure she had his undivided attention. DrP refused, telling her "I will decide whether I hold your hand or not, and what do you mean 'so you can have my undivided attention'?" He made it clear that he was there for her, but that she would not call the shots. I've had to tell my own parishoners that a few times, because if I didn't, I would be taken advantage of big time. Once they decide you're in their back pocket, that's where you live. You were hired to be a servant of God, yes, but that does not mean being a person with tire treads on her back. (Weren't you the one last week who spoke of not waiting around for somebody to give you power???) You have the right to assert yourself and say, "M, can you give me a minute to close down this one thought I'm working on for my Bible Study? Then you can have 100% of my attention and share your exciting news. Have a seat and I'll be with you in just one minute!" You're still in the driver's seat, M does not get ignored, gets the message that your job has many areas of responsibility, and you've got complete sentences when you get back to whatever you were doing.
Venting is good, by the way. I highly approve of it. Peace, friend.
KHC
My tale isn't about church member problems. It's about a senior minister who was demanding and egotistical. He got staff hired to help him carry out the large amount of work, and while we scurried around building programs and leading workshops, he sat on his desk chair all day with his hands behind his head and slowing inching down a bottle of brandy. We had to jump when he called and make sure he always came out looking like every successful event was his idea and that its success depended on him. He had the secretary terrified of him to the point she was getting hives. When it came time for job evaluations, he was incensed that his staff got decent raises. He tried to talk the board out of doing that, saying the staff people were doing the jobs we were hired to do and should not be getting a large reward for it. They held their ground. He told me I was going to get cocky about my good evaluation, which he said I did not deserve. When his evaluation came up, he expected a bigger raise. It was decided he had allowed the staff to do most of the work and he received a small cost of living raise. His anger was felt in that church for the rest of the time he was there. He thought his position earned him the biggest slice of the payroll budget automatically. When he heard the board's view that he also was a servant of the church who was expected to do the work he was hired to do, rage ruled. He was an intelligent man but his prideful sense of self and his cavalier attitude about his personal slaves bumped him out of there. After he left, the church hired a pulpit supply, and none of the staff noticed any difference in our programming or in our work load.
Ta ta, Buster.
Part of the problem with this text is that it contains two different and mostly unrelated sayings - Seems you've got to choose one and go for it, or preach the other - I wonder why the lectionary included both...This is just part of a colleciton of sayins...they don't have any common subtext, I don't think...
Susanna in MO
Susanna in MO, I concure with your observation that this is a collection of sayings that have been interjected into the surrounding narratives, but not directly linked to the narrative. I feel weary about trying to link them together.
Yet some early thoughts is to reflect upon what is faith. I mean this faith that Jesus describes as being able to move mountains and uproot trees.
We live in an age where people are hungry for power. Just look at the craze of Harry Potter, and the WB's Charmed series and the increased interest in Wicka (spelling?)and witchcraft.
And yet here are the disciples asking about increaing their faith and Jesus holds out this vision of great power, of transformative power.
If faith is a relationship, and if our relationship with Christ has the power to transform us, then maybe the answer was in front of the disciples all along.
Our faith in Christ calls us to experience a resurrection. In my theology, it begins today, and I have seen the radical transformation of faith in my life and in the lives of those who found the power of that relationship.
Faith in God forgives the darkest and deepest sin and shame. Faith in God has the power to break demonic bonds brought on by the evil acts of others and our own evil acts.
The Good News is that if we turn to God, if we claim the power of faith(relationship with God) then truly we have found the power to experience radical forgiveness, healing, and empowering. We have found the power of resurrection! Christ is waiting for us to open ourselves to the transformation of God's Grace.
Just some early thoughts.
Grace,
Michael in Dallas
Buster,
I don't know about the bottle of brandy, but it sounds like a pastor I know. I like in the book, "Clergy Killers," that there is at least one chapter on "Killer Clergy." They're out there.
Sally
OK, after a good night's sleep (snore, snore), I feel better. Ahhhhh.... a day off (almost). KHC - thaks for the boost. I didn't see that episode, and I have done that with M. Still, it's hard because she's so nice you almost don't see the whammy behind the niceness. By now, I've learned to recognize it and be poised, but ... well, no one's 100%!
Meanwhile, back at the ranch, Jesus uses "mustard seed" for illustrations quite a bit and in different contexts (though always relating to the size of faith). I'm just curious as to how common or prolific the mustard tree was in that area in that day.
Nothing very constructive on my mind yet, but I did want to check in with my friends!
Sally in GA
Any ideas about this text, World Communion and Baptism? That is what I have going this week. Oh yea, in a church where I have served only four weeks. Peace, Avis in MA (used to be Avis in KY)
Dear friends,
I must admit a approach this passage with a big chip on my shoulder. I am feeling unappreciated at this point in ministry. I don't think I need more faith but it would sure be helpful to have slap on the back and a "Way to go". I arrived at a two point charge 2.5 years ago. As I got settled in I hear a lot of "we want to grow speaches" but there has been active and passive resistance to changing any of our ways or even reading a book on the subject of church growth. I dug an and tried to get committees going that had not been going in 15 plus years only to get the "you make us come to church to much". And at one church the younger crowd is clammering for change but have done little to help bear the load. I am to the point that I am getting in transition mode. I will stick around until my son completes elemenatary school but unless something changes this slave is going to work for the master somewhere else.
Grace, peace and grrrrs,
Mike in Sunshine
Michael in Dallas
I'm not so sure they are unconnected. Granted, at this time I can't connect them, but I have a hunch there's more here than meets the eye on first glance. I would have thought the passage in Luke 16:14-18 was also a collection of unconnected thoughts but I preached them last week with the reading of Lazarus and the rich man and it connected quite nicely. I plan to seek that connection. I believe it's there.
JG in WI
to the anonymous poster who said "being a faithful servant won't get you anywhere" I thoroughly disagree. Being a faithful servant means having a relationship with Jesus Christ, listening to Him, doing what he calls us to do, whether our own personal strength believes we can do it. Being a faithful servant means knowing who we belong to, and that our adequacy is not in ourselves, but in the one who calls.
Susan in Wa.
We have been given the power of prayer and the belief that prayer and faithful action can change things. And it can. But it is important to know what it is we are asking to have changed. Using the power we have been given in order to move a mulberry tree into the ocean serves no one. The tree will be out of its natural setting, will stop producing mulberries and couldn't be reached for harvesting anyway. It would be an act that served no purpose except making us feel we had the power of God to change nature. Same thing with the servant. A servant's natural setting is in the service mode. To move a person from servant to honored person is to remove him from his element and cause him to stop doing what he's there to do. Then the whole place will go to pot. We can exercise our faith and pray for things to be different, and changes can be made, but we have to make sure the changes are the best option.
We are servants of Christ and we have been put in these individual ministries. Some of us have been put into the middle of the ocean where our power to produce anything useful has been greatly hindered. We need to be moved into a place we can be more productive and beneficial and roots can grow. Faith that we can be uprooted and replanted is a good thing. Some of us are in the right place and are happily in the servant mode taking care of daily chores without too much thought about how we'll be thanked or rewarded. Servant is not a bad word when you know you belong in the role in that particular setting. Some of us don't ever want to be removed from our positions of service to the
congregation and community we serve right now. It would feel wrong to change a thing even though we are on call to do their bidding at every hour.
We have to remember that churches can feel the same way. They thought they had the faith to keep things
on track, and then they were told things had to change. They feel uprooted and replanted somewhere they don't understand. It changes their level of production. We clergy can have faith that we can come in and change churches, but for what purpose? Is it truly for the better, will real roots take hold and strong branches sprout, or are we moving things around so we can demonstrate our power over the status quo? We need to consider where we are asking our faith to take us and why. And be prepared for a production reduction, because that's the natural reaction to any dramatic change in environment.
Choosing anonynimity
Fred Craddock writes:
Notice the terms "apostles" and "the Lord"; Luke clearly has in mind not only Jesus and his immediate followers but also the risen Lord of the church and the apostles as leaders of that church. In verse 5 they are feeling the burden, the heavy burden, of that leadership. Jesus' response to them (variant forms are in Mt 17.20; 21.21 and Mk 11.22-23) calls for a close examination, especially the expression, "If you had faith...." The Greek language has basically two types of "if" clauses: those which express a condition contrary to the fact ("if I were you") and those which express a condition according to fact ("if Jesus is our Lord"). The conditional clause in verse 6 is of this second type; one could translate it "If you had faith [and you do]." Jesus' response, then, is not a reprimand for an absence of faith but an affirmation of the faith they have and an invitation to live out the full possibilities of that faith. Even the small faith they already have cancels out words such as "impossible" (a tree being uprooted) and "absurd" (planting a tree in the sea) and puts them in touch with the power of God. That Luke has "sycamine tree" (a kind of mulberry) instead of "mountain" as in Matthew and Mark in no way alters the message: faith lays hold of God with whom nothing is impossible, and it is God who empowers the life of discipleship.
The final teaching (vv. 7-10) is in the form of a parable and is without a parallel in Matthew and Mark. It opens in a manner common to a number of Lukan parables: "Will any one of you?" or "Which one of you?" (11.5-7; 14.23, 31; 15.4, 8). The assumed answer is always no or no one. The parable is built around the slave-master relationship, rather common in New Testament parables but without a clear analogy in our culture. The preacher will have to make an interpretive move to bring the story forward--an uncritical transfer of the relationship to, for example, employees-employers would be misleading. The slave in the story does double duty, in the field and in the house, but the slave understands that his time and labor belong to the master. Even after a period of obedient service, there is no ground for boasting (Rom 3.27), no period of fulfilled duty beyond which merits begin to accumulate. Jesus came among us as one who serves, and so are his followers servants. There is no place or time, therefore, at which the disciple can say, "I have completed my service; now I want to be served." If this parable was prompted by the remark of the apostles at verse 5, then two things can be said. First, the lesson is especially applicable to leaders of the church who can easily forget that they are "servants of the servants of God." Because many people work out their relationship to God in the ways they relate to the minister, special treatment, both positive and negative, can contribute to that forgetfulness. Second, the request for increase of faith (v. 5) must not seduce the apostles or any leaders to assume that with the increase comes elevation in position so that the period of serving ends. Apostles and all leaders of the faithful come under the instructions for all disciples. In the field or in the house, a servant is a servant.
Regarding the connection between the disciples' question about how to have increased faith, and Jesus' comment about serving, I wonder: is Jesus trying to tell them that instead of asking for things, they need to start working for the sake of the kingdom? Is he implying that it's presumptuous for them to ask for special gifts (or to get their emotional needs met through some kind of faith experience) when they ought to be looking around instead, and serving their neighbors for God's sake? So often it seems people come to church to get our needs met instead of to serve God--is there a connection between "shopping around for a church I like" and Jesus' mandate to start serving others that we Christians need to hear? Just an early musing...Tammy (a long-time lurker, this is my first post)
How are faith and human faithfulness related? Based on this text, it seems that whatever gift of faith we have been granted is enough. But our faithfulness to the gift of faith often falls short. I'm soooo tired of hearing my people say, "No pastor, I won't take that leadership role (or that follower role) because it's outside my comfort zone." (Even getting folks to come for a Church Clean-up Day has been difficult! And I've been in many of their homes--they're perfectly comfortable wielding a mop and bucket at home. What difference would it make to wield the same tools as equipment for ministry? OKOK--'nuff venting.)
But if realize that faith is not ours--that it's a gift from the One whose faithfulness is our salvation--then maybe we can also realize that we already have all that we need in order to be faithful to Christ's call to servant ministry.
Random thoughts....
PB in PA
Mike in Sunshine:
Welcome to the small-membership church. We just hosted a seminar on small membership churches and the speaker, whom I commend to you (especially if you're UM) is Rev. Clay Smith of the Hinton Rural Life Center. One of the things he said about small-membership churches (often rural, but not always) is that they don't like meetings. Soooooo true! I found this in my first appointment and have kept it in mind all along.
Also, the resistance. The question i'm grappling with is "is it enough to call it a day?" It's hard to decide, because not EVERYbody resists directly. Still, when churches are in decline (such as mine), they enter into this vortex of self-destruction by clinging to each other all the harder. So, when one person directly resists, others - even though they disagree - are made anxious in an already anxious system. So, they don't enter into resistance. Especially if you're UM, they've discovered long before you got there, that preachers on lower-end salary scale churches don't stay long. Why would they make major changes before they knew you were going to hang in there?
Sally in GA
Wouldn't you feel a little guilty for working someone all day and then making them cook your supper and serve you before even giving them a break?
.......
Also, being a product of my culture, I have a distinct visual and auditory image of Garth and Wayne going 'We're not worthy.'
Sally in GA
Regarding the question about pictures, here's an idea that probably won't help now but may for the future. I often purchase calendars from Amnesty International or Church World Service, or even just photography ones with people as subjects. They have really stunning shots in them. I've kept them and cut them up and use them every year for World Communion Sunday. Many of them include children, so I may leave those up for Children's Sabbath, which is the next week.
Laura in TX
Regarding having somebody work for you all day and then fix your dinner. My sis does that every day. Her husband eats the breakfast she cooks then walks the 20 feet to his office where he sits all day. She cleans up the kitchen, walks the dog, deals with the kids, cleans the bathroom, does the laundry, runs errands, starts lunch. He gets up off his duff and walks 20 feet to eat it and goes back to his desk. She cleans the kitchen again,
deals with the kids, vacuums, mows the grass, weeds part of the garden, takes a shower and starts dinner, then walks the dog. About 4:30 his day of sitting is done, and he gets up from his desk to peer in the oven door. She sets the table, goes through the mail, deals with the kids, and gets dinner onto the plates. He sits down and eats. After dinner, he goes downstairs the rec room. She clears the table, washes the dishes, feeds the dog, deals with the kids, gets things organized for tomorrow, walks the dog and defrosts the meat for tomorrow's dinner. After she goes downstairs to the rec room to deal with the kids he's ignoring
and to have some soothing time, he's ready for her to go back to the kitchen to bake some brownies or pop some popcorn, or needs her to run upstairs to get that book he was reading, or best of all, remembers to tell her that he has invited 10 people from the church to come for a cookout tomorrow, and they want BBQ ribs. By 8:00 he's asleep and she still has to deal with the kids and walk the dog. This is a typical day in the life of my sis and her slavedriver, er, husband. I have spoken to him about it. My sis has told him he needs to help more. He thinks it is a fair division of labor because he makes the money, her job is to take care of him and the kids and the house and she gets paid by having a roof over her head. He has gone so far as to call this the Republican way of Christian family values, with the wife making sure the home is always kept up for the husband. He has never, to my knowledge, given her one shred of appreciation, only expectations that she won't defy those so-called Christian family values.
That's just sick. I'll admit that I don't pull equal weight with my wife when it comes to household chores but I help out a lot. She doesn't complain and I don't think I'm using or abusing her as a homemaker. I do laundry, I cook, I make the kids their breakfast and sometimes pack their lunches. I vacuum, tidy, load the dishwasher and more. Your brother-in-law needs to wake up and share more of the duties in keeping a house and your sister has to stand up to him and demand his help. Jesus' parable is about a different time and culture. Slavery doesn't cut it anymore in our day and age.
Not simply disciples of Jesus, but seasoned apostles (!) find themselves crying out "Increase our faith!" This cry is prompted by the difficult challenges to which Jesus calls his followers in the verses preceding this text (17:1-4): to care for the "little ones" (those inexperienced in the faith, even those in society without position or power) to keep them from "stumbling" in sin, and to forgive consistently those who repent. The Lord demands this of his followers, expecting no less. They, like us, blanch at his words. How can he possibly expect such from us? It is not only the "little ones" who risk stumbling, but us at this call.
The stakes are too high, the risks too great, such devotion claims our unalloyed allegiance. Fear sets in for the disciples as well as for us. The claim of our Lord is more than we can bear. We've still got to function in this world, and we need to have some room. Cut us some slack and let the others "get a life." We'll happily be your slaves on Wednesday and Sunday as long as there's time during the week to take care of business. Set the standards a little lower and we'll be able to make you happy. We're afraid that single minded devotion is not possible. Our hearts want compromise.
But God's reaction to our requested compromise is uncompromising. The master does not wait on the slave; neither does God wait for us to "decide" for service (as if we ever could). We are lost to the household, lost to the life of obedience and deemed unworthy. God's judgment calls us to account and then leaves us to our disobedience.
Thankfully, God has not left God's self without a way beyond the justice of that judgment. Jesus Christ who proclaimed this word of obedience also went before us, paving the way to God's heart through obedience, even to the cross. He let himself be utterly lost in death; but there God did find him "obedient unto death" for us. We, whose death he took upon himself, also are found through his obedience. Indeed, at least in the case of our Lord Jesus the Christ, this Master does not wait on us, "taking the form of a slave" for our benefit (Philippians 2:5-11).
We trust that Christ's obedience is also our obedience, and that his death-and-resurrection is also our death-and-resurrection. God will raise us to new life where obedience beyond human capacity is our privilege and joy as we trust the One sent from the Father. Such is our call to God's own answer to our lostness. We are not enslaved to stay away, but we are grafted into the household forever.
So our life can be joyous service to our Lord and through him to the world which is in need. Through Christ we may embrace our tasks: forgiveness (seven times and more), care of the "little ones," plowing, serving the table. Wherever God places our lives, we will be able to flourish and serve because Christ has gone before. Singleness of obedience will give us the focus to fulfill our divine destiny without worrying about what other "masters" may think.
Robin Morgan
Mike in Sunshine and Sally in GA,
May I recommend a book I found to be very uplifting and encouraging called "Wonderful Worship in Small Churches" by David Ray. It affirms what I believe, which is that there is a place for even the smallest congregation in the body of Christ(my congregation has 44 members -- average attendance 15). The author also talks about the idea of bigger not necessarily being better. Instead of focusing on growth, it may be time to focus on the blessings of serving a small congregation. Your congregation thinks it needs to grow to keep it's doors open. They're afraid. Let them see that there are possibilities even for small churches if they only have the faith of a mustard seed!! Pastor Janel in ND
Am I alone in thinking that if we're not "increasing" our faith through the spiritual disciplines (Wesley's means of grace) that we're already de-creasing it? Our spiritual life can atrophy. Use it or lose it ... I don't think there is a "stride" to hit because as soon as we hit it, it's passed us by.
Sally in gA
unsigned:
your sister's scenario had crossed my mind while I was typing out that earlier post. Maybe this might be a good opportunity to debunk such values.
To add to that, something that always galled me even though I'm a Democrat ;-) ... fair warning: *judgmental side of me getting ready to show* My daughter's best friend from her old school gets reduced priced lunches in the public school. Why? because he dad doesn't make quite enough moeny. They own a home, etc. etc. And the wife? doesn't work. Why? It's not Christian.
Sally in GA
Mike in Sunshine,
Geez! I think we are serving the same church, or maybe yours are family members of mine! Here's something to cheer you. At a session meeting last week with our Executive, one of the members asked what alternatives they had if they didn't have a full time pastor. They were told part time, a commissioned lay preacher, or pulpit supply. One of my elders, who came on the session to "Save the church" said, "Well, we can try pulpit supply for a year and then close the doors." (Now, there's a vision statement, if I've ever heard one!) Our exec rapidly fired off, "You know what kind of a church I call that? That's a Motel 6 church, "We just want to keep the lights on." I had a very loud, (internal) laugh!! I have dealt with lots of the same attitudes. I will be gone in 6 months, or sooner. The church's future is unknown,but I would bet money that it will be closed in a year or so. We had an outreach committee, that included this visionary elder. We gave them one month, (Between meetings) to come up with some ideas on how we could reach out into the community. They came back for the next meeting and not one person had one idea. These are adults, who have worked full time, who have lived in this community for up to 50 years, who know the needs, and not one of them had one idea! That isn't stupidity. It is laziness. Their vision is for the Pastor to do it all and if that doesn't work, they can always blame the pastor. Conveeeeeenient!
Susan in Wa.
To anonymous with the brother Republican Christian Family Values brother in law, what about the part of loving his wife as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her? I guess he never read that far down in Ephesians.
Your sister needs to say more than he needs to help more. She needs to claim her own authority, self respect and dignity by not accepting that any more.
Susan in Wa.
I'm a long time observer of the conversations here, but seldom contribute. But this time, I have to comment: Sally, you must be a fly on the wall at the church I serve! Either that, or we have twin congregations!! M is a member here!! (Smile)
Grace,
KS in NC
Greetings, everyone! I'm not preaching the lectionary this week. We are commemorating the 120th anniversary of our church building this week, so I'm using Matthew 21:12-16 (the Gospel listed in the Episcopal Lectionary for such a celebration) -- it's Jesus cleansing the temple.
Anyway, I have found all the discussion of demanding, but unwilling to grow, congregations very interesting. I served such a church for ten years and finally decided that I'd beaten my head against it enough (literally on one Saturday) and spilled enough of my blood over it (literally on that same Saturday). So now I'm in a different place -- it's older, it's bigger, it's got more money -- but guess what!?!? It's got the same attitudes, demands, and unwillingnesses as other churches. Plus ca change, plus ca reste la meme!
Hang in there as faithfully as you can.
By the way, I think there is a connection between the first saying (the mustard seed saying) and the rest of the pericope. The first saying means that When we act in faith, we grow in faith. Every gift of God is strengthened by the exercise of it, and this is true of faith. But the little parable of the exhausted slave reminds us that that growth of faith is not something we can earn. God owes us nothing for living good, Christian lives. Growing in faith, God's favor, God's blessing are matters of grace; they cannot be earned.
Blessings, Eric in OH
This is a nothing post, folks - I'm just testing a character map. The French in my last post looks funny because two of the c's should look like this ç ... and I wanted to see if this could be done.
Blessings, Eric in OH
this gospel comes almost immediately after yesterday's text. these are the verses that are missing:
1Jesus said to his disciples: "Things that cause people to sin are bound to come, but woe to that person through whom they come. 2It would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a millstone tied around his neck than for him to cause one of these little ones to sin. 3So watch yourselves.
"If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him. 4If he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times comes back to you and says, 'I repent,' forgive him."
5The apostles said to the Lord, "Increase our faith!"
the disciples had just heard 2 very difficult parables that challenged their world view on wealth (and forgivenes) and then jesus adds these words about forgiveness.
they were probably scared s***less that they couldn't do what jesus was asking of them. or maybe more appropriately... "well, jesus, if you expect all this of us then you'd better give us some more resources, because you are simply asking way too much of us."
to which jesus responds: quit complaining, you have all you need to do what i have taught... so do it.
(next comes the healing of the ten lepers)
i was at my local lutheran pericope study today (haven't been there in weeks) and we got to talking about many of the things that are actaully happening in our congregations that are positive. one pastor commented on how great it was to hear these stories of ministry taking place. so often we get together to complain or bemoan what isn't happening and our lack of resources.
we so often try to begin ministry by talking about what we lack, what we need in order to do, but it really isn't until we start projects with "hey, we have this resource, this gift, these talents" that stuff happens.
we also met with our bishop and stewardship expert on his staff. one of the things that was said that i found to be brilliant was that stewardship is asset based. if we try to build a stewardship program based upon needs we don't get very far. people get guilted into making a pledge they can't fulfill, etc... but when people realize their assets and that ministy can happen when they share those assets... stand back!
well, there's my 2cents at 12:20am.
God's peace,
christine at the shore
The verses in our discussion today focuses on something that every believer founds his/her life on...Faith. The disciples said, "Increase our faith" and I've come to know Jesus as a companion who gives us all that we need that is in His express will, exceedingly and abundantly. God is the God who said "no good thing will I withhold from you" and I cannot believe that He would withhold Faith from any of us, let alone His Kin, the Apostles! So then, why didn't Jesus say, 'yes your request shall be granted, go with your increased faith and bring me the world?!
Well Jesus answered, "if you had faith the SIZE of a mustard seed". What was he hitting at? The mustard seed, was to the disciples the smallest thing they knew. Jesus was simply telling them that it was not a matter of SIZE. The faith that they had was sufficient to move mountains, but of course it had to be in His will to do so or else we would have such chaos in our world as believers go about causing environmental catastrophe instead of following God's will and commission.
You see brothers, Jesus was telling them that they already HAVE what it takes, we don't need humungous faith, but "faith cometh by hearing...the Word of God" God Bless
Isaac Bennett
Hi All,
I have not fallen off the face of the earth, just learning new ways to live on it. I love this text. As a little girl I used to lay in bed and say "God, when I wake up, that bear over there will be over here". Of course, it never happened. Mustard seed faith is a faith that knows better than to move objects for the sake of moving objects. Musterd seed faith is about touching hearts and moving souls from death to life in Christ. No we don't do the moving. We just know that God Can and will and we are faithful and amazing things happen. For me, faith is KNOWING the presence of God. Notice I did not say FEELING the presence of God. Many times over these last 3 1/2 years I didn't FEEL God's presence, but I have always KNOWN it. It has been incredible to see lives at the hospital and in our daily life affected by a girl who was unable to controle her anger and frustration at the world and God as she battled Cancer. Kelly knew God's presence always, and it moved souls. I am still hearing from many of them. What more can we ask of faith than to touch lives when we are at our worst?
To hose who asked, I am good. Grieving yet good. God is gracious and merciful each day and that is a gift. I have begun supply preaching again and that is a healing thing. The book about the journey I took with Kelly is nearly published. It ain't written good. (hopeyou are laughing at the obvious English boo boos). It would not have been published were it not Kelly's wish, but how exciting to see her final wish come to fruishion! (not sure I did that right either) Thanks for keeping us in your prayers. We do still need it!
Tammy in Texas
Tammy in Texas,
What a thrill to see you here again. A wholeness and beauty await all of us; no, that beauty is here. Remarkable what is required for the scales to fall off so we can see it, but from your words today, I will choose to see the beauty in my 17-year old daughter, and I will kiss her goodbye as she leaves for school, and I will wish her well, and I will pray for her.
And to all,
Those brief words about little churches have bouyed my spirits. I posted on the gospel site at the end of last week, and decided to move on. Perhaps, on this path, the Lord is making His way for me, as the song says, and so many of you are accompanying me down the path.
My meeting will no longer worship corporately on a weekly basis (read:CLOSING) after Nov. 14. This thought occupies much of my time, yet I'd say I have a full life. But this is important, and the faith community with whom I'm involved has been vital to most of the folks (now just 9 or so, plus my family of 5) who've chosen to continue here, in this tiny rural fellowship. If it didn't matter, it wouldn't hurt...
And then, I move on to...WHAT? Happily tied to the area by my husband's vocation, and a house purchase, I must look beyond a typical call in my denomination, if I will have a preaching/teaching ministry. I only have to look past the mirror, however, to find folks to minister with/to.
lkinhc
Greetings all,
Although a Holstonian, I took my local pastor training in the Western NC Conference. One of the instructors gave us a piece of wisdom about the expectations for part-time local pastors, especially when we are following a full-time ordained. He said that our job can be either to wake the church up and turn it around or to hold its hand as it dies. I see it as sort of an EMT position: try to get the patient stabilized and hopefully get it to the point where a "doctor" (a full-time whether local or ordained) can take over.
The advantage of a part-time local over a student is that you can leave the local in place for 5 or 10 years and break the cycle of "why should we try because you won't be here that long." Most of the locals I've talked to notice a change in attitude after about 3 and a half years. It seems to takes that long before they are really sure you mean to stay a while. I'm in my fifth year. The average stay from 1960 to 2000 was 18 months. That's just the average but only 3 were as long as 4 years.
I liked what someone said about having faith in a God who is faithful. The growth and the harvest will be in His time. We just work the field.
Mike in Soddy Daisy, TN
On the subject of World Communion Day.
My denomination is a member of the NCC that apparently "sponsors" this day, but for some reason we do not inlude it in our calendar they way some of the other mainstream protestant denominations do.
Nevertheless, because I think it's a big deal, I intend to preach about it and use a South African anthem and bake the communion bread.
Do you think this is OK?
Rev NB
Rev NB, A multi-cultural service is perfectly appropriate for World Communion. So is baking the bread yourself, assuming your denomination approves of it. (Some have to use specific types, I recently read, in order for the Communion to be valid.)
To punch up the theme of Communion around the world, some churches have a wide variety of breads on the Table in baskets or on trays - Irish Sodabread, African bakery goods, Mexican tortillas, Scottish shortbread, whatever you can think of. Maybe some volunteers from the congregation can bake or buy some different kinds, too. I have often used many cups from different countries on the Communion Table. These different breads and/or cups on the Table are a wonderful illustration of ONE Lord, ONE faith, MANY peoples.
If you make your own bulletin covers, this is another way to show different cultures' breads and potteryware.
KHC
On the subject of World Communion Sunday, I am trying to intersect this text with our denomination's emphasis on peacemaking. In my reading and musing so far, it seems to me that these seemingly disparate texts focus us on the context of community (young ones / forgiving others) and then tightens the focus to the context of ourselves and examination of our own faith. There is certainly a lot of ground there to connect faith and peacemaking... any thoughts?
--RevMom
as to the "Republican" family values: (notice how frighteningly often we exchange the words, "republican" and "Christian") ...
I've noticed that it's often perfectly ok with the wife to do all that unsigned's sister does. As long as it's ok with both partners, what does it matter to us how they run their life? (though a case can be made that each time a family is run in this way, it adds one more chunk of validity to this value which I, among others, oppose).
If, however, the sister does NOT like this, then she needs to get a backbone. If she believes it and is OK with it, then who are we to say whether she should or should not do all of what she does.
I just think it's interesting that in the current "republican' point of view, it's not enough for women to stay home, cooking and baking, being as they're too stupid to do the "real" work of the home ... but they're perfectly able to EDUCATE the next generation!!! Now it's not enough to stay home vacuuming, but you've got to home school.
But I digress...
I agree with Eric - every congregation has it's M's. Despite what most of those big-talking preachers would tell you, the way to lead is not to waltz into a church and declare a whole new world to them but to enter into their world and edge them away from it. It's just that it takes sooooooooo loooooonnnnnnggggg!!!! I run out of patience. Don't let the big-talkers make you think less of yourselves (I'm projecting big time here; I at first believed their stories); they've got plenty of naysayers and antagonists and they're not leading any better than you. They're quick to tell you what to do, but not so quick to admit that they've got the exact same problem.
Sally in GA
This is corny, but isn't this pericope just saying, "Bloom where you're planted?"
Rather than complaining about being petunias in the onion patch, let's exercise faith the size of a mustard seed ... and we'll be much more willing servants.
Even servants are allowed to set healthy and reasonable boundaries. If the job description of the servant was to work all day and then cook and serve dinner to the boss, well ... then that's the job of the servant. No sense in debating whether it's right or wrong. It's the being dumped on that we read into this pericope.
Anyways, do the best with what you've got. If we're mustard seeds, we can bloom (does mustard bloom?) simply because we're commanded to serve the master and bloom.
The word "worthless slave" doesn't sit right on our modern ears. However, consider the "bloom" - you can't MAKE the blossom; only God can do that. All you can do is make sure your seeds of faith are watered and tilled and weeded regularly.
musing away in Georgia
Sally
Luke 17:6 What kind of conditional sentence is this? Kind of makes a difference in how we understand what Jesus was getting at.
Craddock & others say this is an “according to fact” or “real” conditional i.e. “If you have faith (and you do OR and I believe you do) . . . .”
The commentary in the current Homiletics magazine and Blass/Debrunner indicates this is a “contrary to fact” or “unreal” conditional i.e. “If you have faith (and you don’t OR and I don’t believe you do) . . . .”
I called my seminary and talked to a Greek prof. who referred to Zerwick who calls this a “mixed” conditional (the protasis is “real” and the apodosis is “unreal”) & so translates “If in fact, as you seem to claim, that you have faith . . .”
My conclusion: this is an “ambiguous” conditional – my term :-) It’s hard to know if Jesus is urging his disciples to claim what faith they do have or if he’s saying, “You either have (true) faith or you don’t.” Either way he seems to be challenging his disciples to greater faithfulness.
RJR in IA
The RSV says "If you had faith as a grain of mustard seed....." Nothing about "size".
A mustard seed is teeny tiny but it is pungent. You know it's there when you bite into it! It has a distinctive flavor.
It also "knows" it will grow into a mighty tree that birds can build their nests in (but that's another parable). So it works with the conditions God gives it in nature and it does what it is supposed to do - become a sturdy tree.
If we had that kind of faith, we could do the seeming impossible too. Let go of our preconceived notions of what we are right now (and therefore are doomed to always be) and let God do his work to turn us into what we are created to be. There is a strong future full of potential miracles when we let God lead the way and stop saying "but we are just small with nothing to recommend us".
This church is very small. But I celebrate this church daily. We have decided we can't do everything the big Methodist Church is doing down the street, so we have decided what it is we do well. And then we go do it. We have remained small but strong because we have remained confident in God's purpose for us. We can support any bird that wants to make its nest in our branches. We are branches of the Church of Jesus Christ.
Replying to comments about my sis and her huz.
She is college educated and capable. She married this man almost 40 years ago. He's a lot of hot air and he blows it out wherever he is. Our entire family learned to tune him out 40 years ago but sis still thinks he's the smartest man on earth. If a person can be brainwashed into thinking what her idiot huz says is sacred, she's been brainwashed. Part of the problem is that our parents hated this man from the start and warned sis that he'd make her life hell. For that reason she has never once had one negative thing to say about him in the presence of any family member and only sings his praises. He's perfect. The marriage is perfect. And doing what she does is her job. It's hard to watch my sis being a Stepford wife to a church elder who tells her what to believe about the Bible and those family values. Disagree with him? He won't quit arguing about it until you cry uncle and let him be right. Sis has learned not to start an argument. It must be a miserable life waiting hand and foot on somebody who deserves none of it, but brainwashing is hard to undo.
oh what good posts.
(tammy in texas~ glad to see your post. you continue to be in my thoughts).
this is my first call and i'm in my 4th year. it's a part-time position which comes with all sorts of issues. for the most part the congregation is healthy and vital, but it has what many would call a small church mentality.
we are coming out of what was a conflict that centered around me and the past council president (she thought she should be my mother and tell me what to do... i rebelled and made her misreable)
the conflict was heightened by post 9/11 issues of finances and fear and my new-born son. (needless to say an 8 week maternity leave left them feeling abandoned).
we focused on constant negatives, what we couldn't afford, how few people we could get to commit to committees and pledging. needless to say, ministry stopped and we fought to survive rather than relying on God for life.
it became clear (as the council president finished her term and finally left) that some attitudes needed to change. it was time to focus on what we could do, rather than on what we couldn't.
people in congregations will make all sorts of excuses why they can't do ministry: we don't have enough people, we don't have enough ministry, etc...
so i did away with all the committees (why beat ourselves up and waste so much time trying to get people to do something we knew they wouldn't.) we identified people on council who could make the committment to specific ministries and then identified other people who could do specific tasks for each ministry. for example: no one wanted to be on the evangelism committee, but there were people who would send out visitor cards, start phone chains, etc... suddenly we have an evangelism ministry.
like the disciples we will moan: give us more faith or we can't do it... give us more money or we can't do it, give us more or we can't...
jesus says you have enough... do it.
the question is not how can we get more... but what do we already have?
God's peace,
christine at the shore
unsigned~
i will pray for your sister and her husband.
in my opinon, he is abusive. perhaps he doesn't beat her, but abuse can also be emotional, mental, and spiritual. and they certainly fall into these categories of abuse.
unfortunately, there isn't much you can do. unless one or both realize that they are filling these roles nothing will change and little anyone else does will make a difference.
even more unfortunate is that their children will have this example passed onto them.
God's peace
christine at the shore
am the commissioned lay pastor of a small inner city presbyterian church..half way between the largest catholic bisilica in buffalo, ny . ... and where the lackawanna 6 were arrested..... not quite the place where "growing faith" comes easy... the remnant we are is strong... but old and weary... we are the tree that is uprooted and moved ... moved to do more.. love this lectionary... we go month to month in faith that the bills will get paid... World wide communion is essential so we don't feel alone... paula
Am the commissioned lay pastor of a small inner city presbyterian church... between the largest catholic bisilca in Buffalo, ny and where the lackawanna 6 were arrested... not what anyone would say is "faith building"... but we continue to survive... with the faith that keeps us in mission.. feeling very like a remnant, like those who need to be reminded of the faithfulness of faith and of the Lord, Jesus the Christ... pray for these elderly and weary souls... as we continue to be that tree that is moved by faith and prayer.... paula
Tammy -
Thanks for your reminder about our role in the scheme of things. Sometimes I think we get to caught up in our role (even just in the "preacher" part of that role) to remember to keep the main thing (faith/faithfully perservering) the main thing.
Please let us know when the book is published and how we can purchase. Many of us will want a chance to read it - and grammar be hanged; it's your heart we want to read.
You remain in my prayers
rrg in indiana
Tammy in Texas,
It is so good to see you back on this site. I think of you often and keep you in my prayers. I too would be interested in reading your book when it is completed.
Blessings on you,
Susan in Wa.
"Increase my faith" - well, how do you increase *faith?* Isn't having faith like being pregnant - either you are or you aren't? The size of your belly gets larger as the baby grows, but you're still just as pregnant!
Sally in GA
unsigned - OK, now I understand a bit better and am inclined to agree with Michelle. He's on an abusive power trip - and you don't really know what ~really~ goes on behind closed doors but you smell a rat, anyhow. I'm so sorry to hear that of your own sister ...
Still, my mother is convinced my husband brainwashed me! I got independent and had thoughts *gasp* different from her and she thinks I'm brainwashed. I'm also educated and am pretty intelligent. The main difference? She's conservative and I'm liberal.
Just had to be the devil's advocate.
Sally
christine at the shore - thank you for that post!!!! We had a "merger" meeting last night (the "major" officers of both churches - you may recall that my congregation of the last 3 years is merging with another) and I was the one who was negative! I focused on what they don't do rahter than on what they do - do. (or is that doo-doo?)
Ironically, when one woman held me accountable for that negativity, and I apologized for that but still held my ground that there really ARE naysayers in the church (our primary naysayer was the one who said, "We don't have any naysayers in our church.") the mood changed.
I dont' know if it was wise for me to share that I'm going through my own valley that doesn't even involve them, but it's interesting how people started making suggestions ------ that passed!!!
There's an exercise group looking for a place to meet (one of our members takes that class) and we're going to make room for them three mornigns a week!! Wow~!!!!
For the first time since I've been there, a new idea came from an actual congregant and I didn't have to be involved in "selling" the idea!
Other ideas for evangelism arose, and I wasn't even involved in the majority of the ideas!
I have no idea if it was BECAUSE of my negativity (my husband thinks that though I feel bad about it, it may have helped) or DESPITE my negativity, but something changed in the meeting.....
I ask your prayers that the change continue. Maybe I haven't run out of steam, after all.
Sally in GA
Sally -
I hope you will cut yourself some slack and remember that sometimes what we (or others) dismiss as negativity is actually taking the risky position of naming a truth that others don't want to face. Put your experience last night into dialogue with your own words from the discussion of cowardice on the 2 Timothy board. Perhaps cowardice would have been to not name the truth that you saw - and perhaps the positive behaviors you saw last night came from holding to the truth while apologizing for the ways in which that can feel hurtful to others.
I find I need to ask myself very regularly whether I am holding to a position because it is mine or because it is right. I usually know the question has to be asked when I find myself having to ask "Ok, is there something I need to learn about myself here?"
Perhaps an acknowledgement of that need for disciplined, fearless, humble, faithfully discerning truth is just what your people need to hear as they wrestle with the (difficult) task of merging.
Hope the above is encouraging and helpful; that is what is intended.
rrg in indiana
desperate preacher site froze and didn't get whole post - entire message follows
Sally -
I hope you will cut yourself some slack and remember that sometimes what we (or others) dismiss as negativity is actually taking the risky position of naming a truth that others don't want to face. Put your experience last night into dialogue with your own words from the discussion of cowardice on the 2 Timothy board. Perhaps cowardice would have been to not name the truth that you saw - and perhaps the positive behaviors you saw last night came from holding to the truth while apologizing for the ways in which that can feel hurtful to others.
I find I need to ask myself very regularly whether I am holding to a position because it is mine or because it is right. I usually know the question has to be asked when I find myself having to ask "Ok, is there something I need to learn about myself here?"
Perhaps an acknowledgement of that need for disciplined, fearless, humble, faithfully discerning truth is just what your people need to hear as they wrestle with the (difficult) task of merging.
Hope the above is encouraging and helpful; that is what is intended.
rrg in indiana
To the unsigned sister,
I'm a conservative, a Christian, and a Republican..and also a woman capable of intelligent thought. And stretched to painful limits, occasionally, by the discussions at this site.
Don't blame the choices of a slothful brother-in-law and an industrious sister on politics. This isn't Rep. v. Dem., Cons. v. Lib., Christian v. other. It's what they have built and chosen together.
lkinhc
This is sort of related to the sister post. I read an article about a mission church where people had to set up chairs at 3 a.m. or something for the worship service later on. A man who was there to set up chairs was complaining about how early it was, and the team leader sent him home just like that. The message was, if you're not called to this ministry and can't have a decent attitude about it, don't do it.
That's quite a message for me, being in yet another teeny mission church. We are in mission, but I often fall back on calling the same old people to do stuff I know they don't want to do, much less feel called to do. I think I'm going to talk about call and ministry and finding the joy in "slavery." My feeling is, if the ministry that you're doing is something you're going to complain about, don't do it.
Okay, sometimes it's not that simple, but for lay folks doing ministry, I'd rather have no, say, ushers, than four disgruntled ones.
Hope that makes some sense.
Peace,
Beth in ga.
I wasn't the one who assigned my sis's huz as a Republican Family Values man. He did that himself.
"He has gone so far as to call this the Republican way of Christian family values, with the wife making sure the home is always kept up for the husband". I wouldn't put the politics label on it myself. I'd label it unhealthy. For any of you who want to gripe that this is off topic, let me remind you that this started out with a question about who would expect anybody to serve them all day then serve them supper to, a la the Bible verse for the week. The practice continues and the servant is still expected to give and give until she drops with no measurable reward on a daily basis.
Off topic but I had to share:
Sally,
I had a similar experience in my congregation at a Christian Education meeting. We're trying to rebuild a program that has been failing for 40+ years and, predictably, no one wants to actually work with the kids. Lots of people are willing to "help" but not a single person wanted the "responsibility of teaching." I became soooo frustrated and finally made my frustration known. Told the entire ministry team that, as long as we continue to fail to live up to Jesus' call to serve, we are failing the youngest members of his family.
The day after the meeting, as I was kicking myself over what I'd said, I happened to get a call from a much more experienced colleague. He actually affirmed what I said and told me that, in his years of ministry, "One thing I've learned is this: If you're not willing to call them on their sinfulness and shortcomings, they'll begin to distrust your praise of their gifts."
In hindsight, my "outburst" opened up discussion and we've created a Sunday School program that is completely different from anything that's ever been done here. And so far, attendance is higher than it's been in many generations. I've come to the conclusion that there was a great deal of wisdom in my colleague's words to me.
God is good! PB in PA
Can somebody name me a profession or vocation where there are not really stinkin' people to deal with and days when you want to throw in the towel? What about our children's teachers? What about your
postal carrier? Or your family physican? Given all the pros and cons of the various professions I could have entered, I'll take the Christian ministry
that God called me to. The thing about it is that there are wonderfully creative ways to do our work.
We have latitude to move around in, we are not confined to one medicine for one ache or one route to follow day after day. If we're in drudgery, we need to become more creative. We're smart, we can do that! We can slowly introduce new ideas so that the members actually come to think they are the ones who dreamed them up! Our tiny church needed money to support a mission, so I started solo-cooking church dinners to raise funds. Now, instead of them being the Pastor's dinners, they are Church dinners, and the members have taken them over. They have forgotten I started them 10 years ago. Who cares who gets the credit if the idea is a helpful one that feeds the mission budget? They also forget who first had the idea of summer CE programs, but they have taken them over and call them a tradition in our church. This tradition is
all of 6 years old. My idea they originally rejected as unnecessary has turned into their annual project of great importance. These things will continue after I'm gone because they believe they are owners of them. I can't think of too many professions where you can create, demonstrate, then back off and let it fly in the hands of the people.
We work for a tough boss, get use to it!
Most of the time, my mentality is one of consumerism. Oh yes Lord, I would serve you, but what is in it for me? Can you increase my faith?
Oh wow, with faith I could move mountains and perform the super-natural feats. Yup, I want some of that.
But then You talked about cruel treatment to your own servants, making them work more after a day tiresome labor in the field. That's cold! I thought we were friend, that you love me and serve me, and tend to my every need...?
Oooh, I get it! Is that the way I can increase my faith? I really need to see that you are God and I am not. I really need to serve past the point of visible capacity. That's how I increase faith!
OK, boss - whatever you say! I just work here!
Coho, Midway City.
