Scripture Text (NRSV)
Luke 12:49-56
12:49 "I came to bring fire to the earth, and how I wish it were
already kindled!
12:50 I have a baptism with which to be baptized, and what stress I
am under until it is completed!
12:51 Do you think that I have come to bring peace to the earth?
No, I tell you, but rather division!
12:52 From now on five in one household will be divided, three
against two and two against three;
12:53 they will be divided: father against son and son against
father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother,
mother-in-law against her daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against
mother-in-law."
12:54 He also said to the crowds, "When you see a cloud rising in
the west, you immediately say, 'It is going to rain'; and so it
happens.
12:55 And when you see the south wind blowing, you say, 'There will
be scorching heat'; and it happens.
12:56 You hypocrites! You know how to interpret the appearance
of earth and sky, but why do you not know how to interpret the present
time?
Comments:
Today's gospel contains harsh words concerning the purifying and
potentially divisive effects of God's call. People who follow the way
of Christ often encounter hostility and rejection, even from those
they love.
Untold numbers of viewers regularly turn to cable TV's Weather Channel
for updates, feeding their insatiable interest in weather. With radar
and satellites, frontal systems and weather maps, we have added
scientific knowledge to the ability to interpret the appearance of
earth and sky. Jesus doubtless had something different in mind when he
addressed his remarks to the hypocrites in the crowd in today's
gospel. Nonetheless, he wanted his hearers to know that a storm was
brewing.
The stewing images of judgment and destruction--of nature and
community out of joint--are still very disquieting and not easily
interpreted. They are like an abstract painting whose power is
apparent but whose meaning is elusive. Minnesota artist Luc Le Bon
painted a picture suggestively called "Boundary Waters." The bottom
four-fifths of this striking piece consists of alternating zones of
streaked black and smoky white with small patches of green throughout.
The uppermost zone is a contrasting strip of blood red punctuated with
a mottled, hazy yellow disk, suggestive of a squashed sun on the
horizon.
The painting, in spite of its title, eludes precise interpretation,
very much like Jesus' jeremiad in today's passage. In Le Bon's
painting it is not certain whether the sun is rising or setting. In
Jesus' oracle one is not sure whether to cower in fear or seek space
for hope in the midst of the storm. If in faith--not fear--one chooses
the latter, it is essential to remember that no matter how great the
disruption, the victory is ultimately God's. Whatever the shape and
scope of judgment, we are obliged to remember that Jesus has destroyed
death by his death. While we his people live in the midst of death, we
also live in anticipation of new life. Those who have a weather eye
would do well to keep it wide open for signs of God's judgment and
promise during the present and the time to come.
please sign your comments. unsigned contributions look terribly
arrogant and instead of being helpful irk me to no end! Franz
Where is the good news in this scripture? PH in OH
The good news is that justice is coming!
Too often we want to only dwell on God's mercy, and neglect God's
justice. However, both of them are good news, because both of them are
two sides of the same coin... the triumph of good over evil, the
victory of God's goodness in a fallen, sinful world.
The good news is that if the world doesn't take the carrot, God still
has the stick.
Jesus is not for wimps only.
Feeling strangely triumphalistic, Pastor Stinky
The Good News is that Jesus divides... at least some will get to live
in a favorable light of the glory of God! It sad that some
(undoubtedly some we know and maybe us if we aren't truely in love
with the one true God), will be divided from those who God sees fit.
In an age of ecumenicalism promoting peace these words from the mouth
of the Prince of Peace are like a clang of a steel lid. DRH in OZ
I just can't even discuss these passages. They don't sound like
anything more than fear mongering at the hands of the early church. I
frankly have serious doubts they are authentic words of Jesus.
Is this an attempt to call people to belief? If so, it fails
miserably. Is this an invitation to the Christian life, with families
falling apart at the seams and the Savior wishing fire was burning on
the hillside? Fear never won a serious convert. It may win people who
want to escape something bad, but it does not mean they want to stand
on the side of good. It just means they don't want their feet burned.
Jesus saw himself as a reconciler, bringing the known renegade members
of his Jewish family (tax collectors and other sinners) to the supper
table. His disciples were certainly a group that might have done war
with each other in other circumstances. He told us to pray for our
enemies, and said nothing about converting God's enemies with any tool
other than love. (the Let your light so shine thing. He told parables
of fathers never ceasing to wait for their wayward sons, he refused to
get involved in squabbles between brothers about inheritances, and
restored children and brothers to their families, even after death.
And now I'm supposed to tell my congregation that following Jesus is
going to mean they may get separated out from their own families and
fear is all around us? Not on your paraments I won't.
It does not implicitly say so, but we are left to assume that the
division is between those who believe and those who don't, and where
they will spend their eternities. If I do anything at all with this
text it will be to speak to the dangers believing that YOU'RE the one
who will be swept into heaven while the REST of THEM will be swept
into hell. As the text for August 8 led me to quote in my sermon,
"there are many who cry to me "Lord, Lord", but I will say, "I never
knew you." God will be merciful to whomever he will be merciful, and
we are likely in for a big surprise on just who that will be. Believe,
yes, but assume nothing about where your disenfranchised brother will
spend his eternity.
Whew. And all I was going to say was that I didn't want to preach on
this intentionally scary text.
KHC
To whoever said oil is a moron, watch out. Either he's got a new set
of names or he's been cloned. New names, same theme. He'll sneak up on
you before you know he's there, unlike Jesus, who knocks.
It seems we have division on our own site about whether to approve,
tolerate, or set flame to OIL. I'm in the tolerate school. OIL's
postings don't "work" for me - I just scroll past - but maybe they
"work" (i.e. speak a word from God) to somebody.
Karen Armstrong is right - religion is pragmatic. It provides comfort
and challenge within its own setting, otherwise it's irrelevant. This
is why certain images of God (king, warrior, shepherd) don't speak to
us in the same way as others (parent, guide) because those latter
images are more relevant to us.
But just as I wouldn't argue with someone who wanted to see God as
shepherd, I wouldn't argue with OIL's postings. So what if it doesn't
work for me? Maybe it will work for somebody, and bear some kind of HS
fruit.
LF
LF and any others that find interest. My first reaction to your post
reminds of an old poster I used to have depicting "Linus" of the
Peanuts gang. The phrase used with it said "It does't matter what you
believe, as long as you are sincere!" In my youth I thought that was
truth. My how innocence can change to cynacism (I sometimes wonder if
Bill Murray's "theology" in "Meatballs" is'nt the correct one "It just
doesn't matter!"). While I do more often than not think it matters
what one believes especially when they are sincere, I also do not
believe in making it works righteousness! And especially think it is
wrong to beat someone else over the head with it. What I believe
matters to me but not necessarily to all others. These are tough
scriptures, especially "lifted" out of the Gospel for a pericope. I
like Luther's idea "Let scripture interpret scripture (and Jesus'
words interpret Jesus?). On that note I too wonder not only how
accurate these words of his are or speculate that Luke is stringing
"pearls" here he has gathered about Jesus's sayings from different
sources. So that leaves me with the problem "what to tell the folks?"
I like what you said about Karen Armstrong, have thought it myself but
can't say I have found her books that "pragmatic" for me!! So what to
do? Dig and dig hard, I would prefer pulling "good news" out of St.
Luke's hat (if he has one)!
I hear in Jesus' words, Jesus acknowledging the "tension" of living
and of being faithful (and maybe trying to figure out what the heck he
is saying!).
As far as Oil goes, I don't get him/her. Not my style for sure. But I
too just scroll past. Maybe some do the same my (growing number of)
postings as well. "It just doesn't matter - but (maybe) it matters to
me?"
OMG
True, they're harsh words ... and somewhat difficult to preach -
especially considering I usually preach "unity" in Christ.
Still, haven't we all experienced divisions on behalf of the Gospel -
or, our interpretations of the gospel?? My own family would like me to
believe just like them, and in my heart of hearts, I believe they're
wrong.
Last week, I touched on "orthopraxis" - (where your treassure is,
there your heart will be). This week, maybe it's the opposite (where
your heart is, there your treasure will be)??? This is "orthodoxy" -
don't know how to interpret the present time, or believing the "right"
thing will cause division in a household. Hmmmm.... well, it's a
thought, anyow.
I hope I can tag along for the Bible study, but I won't be preaching
this week.
And, please pray for us; the associate resigned and I couldn't talk
her out of it. We did, however, part on good terms. I think she was
just waaay hypersensitive.
Sally in GA
This could be a very thought provoking discussion this week. I figure
we will come from very different places, some wanting to show how
these words of Jesus must be taken at face value, and a positive
message must be found. Others will refuse to use it, and can't see
Jesus ever saying this. Then there will probably be those who will go
just, "hmm."
You know, I can't wait for it to get started. Right now this is a
place where God speaks to me. At some statements I say "hmm." At
others I say, "huh." At others I angrily say HUH. At others I scroll
past. And at others I yell, "YES"
I know I'm going to benefit greatly this week, even though I will
again be preaching from the Hebrew lection.
shalom bammamma
My family's story. Read if you want or scroll down.
My mother's faith was the center of her existence. (raised Anglican,
later Presbyterian) My father, the scientist, was not a believer. They
were happily married for 56 years. They raised 3 Presbyterian
believers and one non-believer. One sister married a truly fundamental
Southern Baptist Christian who believed there was only one way to
interpret Scriptures. My brother switched from a strong Presbyterian
to a strong Roman Catholic. One of his sons is Native, and preferred
the religion of his birth family to his RCath upbringing. We were an
interesting group around the dining room table. Religion never became
an issue that divided, although it was certainly a topic of
discussion. Jesus, God, doctrines, judgment, grace, eternity, you name
it, we covered it. We listened, shared and came away with broader
minds, if not changed ones. We remained stubbornly sitting where we
thought truth could be found, whether that was with Jesus, without
Jesus, with the Bible, without the Bible.
By the way, after my mother died, my father started thinking about God
and Jesus in a new way. I can't say he's Christian now, but he's moved
toward some idea of a Comforter and a need to look beyond what science
can explain. I'm SOOOOOO pleased.
Still seeing if there's anything I want to deal with in this text
before I jump ship.
KHC
ph in Oh
I think the good news as far as I can see is that Jesus did come, and
Jesus gave a baptism of the water and spirit I don't know if that is
enough to chew on though
To OMG: "It doesn't matter what you believe, as long as you're
sincere" is certainly NOT my philosophy. A cannibal may sincerely
believe that other people are a food source. That matters! (forgive my
ludicrous example)
Like Paul in Galatians, I look to what sort of "fruit" in thoughts and
actions come from belief. I have no problem looking at love, peace,
patience, etc. as the fruit of non-overtly-Christian belief, and
finding those consistent with the Holy Spirit.
It's in this spirit (Spirit?) that I read other's postings and
contribute my own. If the fruit they result in is consistent with the
Spirit of Jesus Christ, if they produce good fruit in other people's
lives, GREAT!
And it's possible that OIL does this for somebody. If the repeated and
apparently random insertion of the word "love" into Scripture produces
actual love, fine. For me, it mostly produces bewilderment and
irritation. But I'm not willing to flame OIL, and I don't think
anybody else should either, on the grounds that maybe his/her posting
might produce some kind of HS fruit.
Said nothing about the text. Sorry.
LF
I don't know that taking Jesus's words at face value necessarily means
you have to find a positive word. I think you can take Jesus's words
at face value and come up with a negative word!
The gospel of the coming of the kingdom of God is a large and
miraculous and wonderous things. However, even God sometimes cracks
some eggs in order to make an omelet... and the cracking of eggs is a
terrible thing. (especially if you're an egg!)
I suppose I still see good news (as a Christian, it's hard not to) in
that it will all work out in the end. However, I think we can't be
afraid to take Jesus at his word that sometimes things are gonna suck
along the way.
And, yes, I know there is that critical school of thinking which says
we can discard this because we don't like it, or because it's a
mission statement ("I come..."). I think we do ourselves and others a
disservice when we neglect the important hermeneutical tool of Sitz im
Buch.
"Nobody told me there'd be days like these"... well, actually, Jesus
told you there'd be plenty.
-- Pastor Stinky
Maybe the good news is that Jesus came to bring fire. Something that
will ignite the people to action. Action often divides.
In our present time this is also good news since we need a bit of fire
burning Spirit to ignited those in power to justice. Sounds like we
must interpret the signs of the time. Walmart wages, new low paying
jobs that then social services support, educational cutbacks etc. A
bit of spouting off! Nancy-Wi
this was the text the first time i sat in church with my soon-to-be
mother-in-law.
needless to say it was shocking to hear those words while sitting next
to her.
i will be celebrating mary, mother of J this coming sunday so i don't
know that i'll be around much this week. (guess we'll see how addicted
i am to all of you.)
i will say this about the text.
it seems to me that J is talking about his approaching death when he
mentions the fire that will be kindled. i can almost feel the tension
in his words.
perhaps the key to understanding this text is in the word "interpret".
i haven't done any study on the word, but my first reaction to this
text is that people wanted answers to why things happened, to be able
to predict things like the weather and such. and they had some talent
in doing so.
but they didn't understand j's purpose and had trouble interpreting
his actions and his teachings.
i would also suppose that families were horribly divided by this new
faith that was being practiced in luke's time.
i remember reading the story of perpetua and felicity who were
martyred for following "the way." perpetua's family begged and pleaded
with her to change her beliefs and deny christ, but she wouldn't. she
and her father would fight over this before she died and it caused a
great stress in the family. perpetua had just had a child and felicity
was pregnant while in jail. their story even mentions felicity's
breasts leaking milk while she was taken to her death.
it is a painfully difficult text, but how we practice our faith, what
we believe about God can be very divisive. the elca is feeling that
right now with the dicussion on sexuality. and i know that in my own
family there have been fights between a fundamentalist aunt and her
husband and my parents over what is right and wrong to believe.
somebody said that they didn't want to preah about fear, but i don't
think this text is about fear. i think it's more about honestly
looking at what we might face in our faith personally and what our
communities of faith have faced in our history.
i made the decision to celebrate mary before ever looking at this
text. i suppose i'm glad i did.
and please leave oil alone. i just skip his/her posts because i found
them dificult to read. i have no desire to get equally as frustrated
by reading posts about how "crazy" s/he is. so please, just let it go.
God's peace, christine at the shore
We talk often about the great Fred Craddock, but I don't think we
often follow his teachings, at least I don't. I pray that each reader
remembers that as preachers we must "get into the scriptures" and try
to determine what God is saying to us and what message that he has for
us, before we "get OUT of the scriptures" and look at other sources
such as commentaries and DPS forums. I pray that we all will remember
to preach the message that God has given to us, and not the message
that he has given to someone else.
Craddock Fan
Brace yourself. This post is not for the feint of heart.
If the Gospel is not causing division, then people are missing the
point.
The Word of the Lord is a piercing sword that causes division. The
challenge is to leave the "things" and perpetrators of this world's
system behind and follow Christ.
Most liberal and boderline liberal churches are going to face this
division head on in the coming decade when they have to decide what to
do about gay people who want to stop "living in sin" and get married.
I see this as a "cloud rising" and a "wind blowing" that is going to
bring rain (tears perhaps?) and fire (tempers flaring?).
This fire is a refiner's fire, drawing away the impurities. Will you
be drawn to the fire and be destroyed like a moth or will you be
purified and made like gold? (Have I just re-invented purgatory?)
Is a church that bends to fallen human culture worth preserving? What
will remain of the church that I have been a part of? Will it split
along generational lines (like the reading above says)?
I am not ashamed of being right and being the only one who is right. I
was open for suggestions a while ago (and some days my faith/light is
pretty dim) but I look to the faith fo the martyrs who gave their life
for the defense of true truth and I find hope.
Someone may die for a lie and not know it is a lie, but I don't think
people will die for a lie that they know to be a lie.
As far as Linus' quote goes...
I may sincerely believe I have the right of way and step out in front
of an oncoming car. The car may actually be going the wrong way on a
one way street but I'll still be right. Dead right.
Maybe I'll be dead right on the homo-matrimony issue.
~~SDG (See, I told you it would be inflamatory!)
Hi everyone. I gratefully read postings on this forum faithfully every
week. Although, in the last four years this is only my third posting.
Usually this is because I'm madly reading on Saturday night--at which
time posting is pretty much futile! ;~)
Anyways, this week I'm finally ahead of the game, and could not resist
the temptation to post my two cents, so, here it goes...
I am wondering if there might be a connection made between this
passage in Luke and the pericope from Hebrews 12.
The great witnesses listed in Hebrews 12 were all Old testament
figures. Their challenge as it relates to my life in the twenty-first
century seems remote. The passage in Luke at first glance, seems also
remote as it speaks of division over beliefs, which in this day and
age seems trivial when everyone is "right" to beleive whatever they
want to believe.
All that being said, by my second read I began to get something
different. To me, the challenge that Jesus gives in this passage to
live out what we beleive. This appears to be echoed later in
Hebrews--just that the challenge is given in a different way by the
writer. What I began to discern wAs that I may not be as up to the
chaallange as easily as I first thought!
Pursuant to the perfection of their faith in Jewish thought at the
time, Jewish believers sought to emulate the great heroes of their
faith through their perfection in following the Law of Moses. However,
Jesus is calling them (us) to a perfection of faith not through
attempting to fulfill God's Law on our own power, but by going beyond
belief, into actually living it out as the heroes of the faith did; as
He was living out in front of them (hence his reference to
"interpreting the present")
So often in the Old Testament stories there are examples of
mother-in-law against daughter-in-law; etc., folks like Jospeh (of
techni-color dream coat fame) and Jacob, Issac and Moses, ones for
whom living out their faith put them "against" members of their
family. This did not necessarily mean they were against one another as
"us" versus "them." Rather, the stories explain how each person went
their own way (whatever was "right" for them). Following God, however,
they are able to pursue their God given goals with their God given
gifts; thus, following God and pursuing relationship with Him then
brings about various outcomes: opportunities of faith; coping;
courage; battle; hardship; and, reconciliation. No particular story is
right or wrong they are presented almost as case studies into people
pursuing their faith--what we get out of them is what we put into them
as we read them.
Similarily, in Luke, Jesus does not say that families being set three
against two or two against three is either bad or good, nor does He
explicitly speak of the outcome of such divisions--He is simply saying
it is inevitable that the living out of one's faith is going to result
in division.
I beleive that His illustration of discussing the weather, yet not
being able to interpret what is going on in the present could be just
as easily presented by discussing modern day control of the television
remote:
Who in your household gets to hold the remote; who gets to watch what
at a given time slot? How many tv's have been purchased to avoid the
fighting? So, now here's the kicker---how is it that we can so ably
figure out who gets to watch what when; but when the dust settles we
still haven't been able to figure out how to reconcile with each other
and watch tv together?
Jesus is saying that personal beliefs, whether about weather, or faith
will divide. Fact, but not end of story: The question remains, are we
prepared for it? The people listed in Hebrews were great not because
of what they did or because of their reward; rather, they were great
because of their cause, "why they did what they did." I believe that
this is the challenge to which Jesus is also calling us--why do we do
what we do and is it worth the division? It better be, for we are
dealing here not with the frivolous matters of tv remotes or the
weather, but of things eternal and our relationship with God.
I refer you to consider a challenge from Rick Warren's book, "The
Purpose Driven life," and ask you to think now in terms of eternity.
For instance, in the big picture of life, and beyond, does it really
matter whether or not tonight that I get to watch the final episode of
friends re-run because I missed it last time? Is that really worth
fighting for and dividing my household one against the other--over a
tv show?
Conversely, in the bigger picture of eternity, does it matter that I
am able to lobby my government to not support or support same-sex
marriages or lobby the schools to allow Christian prayers to be once
again prayed by students?
What fights are we choosing and which are worth fighting? To me this
is what makes these passages relevant to me--for certainly in society
today fighting is all the rage (pun intended). Over much pettier
things do we pit one household member against the other--why would we
be "uncomfortable" hearing Jesus saying that belief might do the same?
Why would division because of beliefs be any worse than what we are
already divided up about within our households--which , come to think
of it brings me back to the same quesation: which is more worth the
effort, time and energy?
More over, what is also different about how Jesus talks of this
divison amongst a household, is that Jesus does not judge these
divisons in and of themselves. That's our twenty-first century eyes
reading something into the text which isn't there. Rather it is the
cause of the divisons "amongst the ranks" as it were to which He is
calling judgment. Jesus is not saying that the divisions are good or
bad neither does He suggest which side is right or wrong.
What Jesus is saying, is that He is passionate about what He beleives,
He knows we are passionate about what we believe. He is prepared to
surf a wave of division--what he is asking of us is if we are prepared
to catch that same wave also and "grip ten" with Him!
Pastor in BC, Canada, eh! (wow, you stuck with me right to the end!
I'm pleased, honoured and privileged--thanks)
PS thanks for all the posts--many a Sunday has been helped because of
your thought provoking postings--hope mine can be of use to someone
out there too!
RevGilmer in Texarkana:
Your sister in law will be in good hands at "Big Baylor" as we call it
around here. They have wonderful doctors and resources and they know
about the power of prayer there! :) I have added her to my prayer
list. (I don't post here often but I do glean so much from reading the
posts. Thank you everyone! :) )
Vaya Con Dios! Rev.TA in TX
I, too, will be following the texts for "Mary, Mother of our Lord,"
however, the divisions of this text do not bother me. I see the
warnings much the same as the divisions of the denominations of
Chirst's Church here on earth. The American Baptists are divided from
the Southern Baptists, the Wisconsin Synod Lutherans from the Missouri
Synod Lutherans from the Free Lutherans from the Evangelical
Lutherans. The Old Catholic from the Roman Catholic from the Episcopal
from the Church of England. Would the UMC be divided from those
disunited? What a ruckus it proves to be in a family when the new baby
is baptized the "wrong" way, or dedicated instead!
Some are so "on fire" for the way they believe things to be that it
has to be the only way. Strong faith is not necessarily 100% right,
but I trust God to be merciful, even to those who have resorted to the
juvenile practice of name-calling on this site. We do not need to fan
the flames of division by such practices.
We can, however, try to speak the truth in love, realizing that God
has not promised complete revelation to anyone this side of eternity.
Michelle
PS: Please sign posts, even if you use a nickname to maintain
anonymity.
Hi--I've just returned to the pulpit after a sabbatical year during
which I read for a MA in peace studies. I see this passage as speaking
very clearly to our times. I am surprised by any poll results that
show greater certainty than a 45%/55% split. Our president was not
'elected', half the population approves/disapproves of the war. There
is little collaboration, cooperation, or even rational discussion. You
are for us or against us and we will not listen to your side. The
courses I took in peace studies and conflict resolution were very
political but I wrote most of my papers from a theological point of
view. Jesus is the Prince of Peace and peace is very divisive. Peace
is boring and we crave extreme excitement. War is the ultimate
excitement. Chris Hedges says that soldiers and war correspondents
become addicted to the thrill and adrenaline rush of war. I think that
the public does too. There is no adrenalline rush to negotiating
peace. And so, the challenge is to make peace--and
Christianity--exciting and attracive in ways that offer more that a
rush, an inner and outer calm that takes us beyond the highs of
drugs--both natural and artificial--to a spiritual high that very few
experience. We cannot avoid the division that Jesus brings untill we
can teach our children that the highs of violence, excitement, money,
and drugs, are nothing compared to the peace, joy and love that Christ
exemplifies. And yes, the great cloud of witnesses are further
examples that following God's call is not boring, but is not violent
thrills. Peace Pastor in NY
in response to the good news. In the Lutheran terms "law" sometimes
has to be given with very little grace.....my problem is being that
itis the summer in talking the hard stuff you are "preaching to the
choir" the ones who need to hear the heavy handed message are staying
away (becasue they know they need to hear it) In my little mind the
grace is always that it is Jesus delivering the news. When he is
present there is the reminder of God's amazing grace. On one more note
I have had this sermon brewing in my head about "hypocrites" how many
times have we heard that "I don't go to church anymore the people
there are hypocrites" I might do that one God bless Pastor Keg
John Dominic Crossan discusses this attack on the family in his book,
"Jesus A Revolutionary Biography" pages 58-60. The axis of separation,
John writes is located between the generations. The attack on the
family has do with power, not faith. John writes, "The attack is on
the Mediterranean family's axis of power, which sets father and mother
over son, daughter, and daughter-in-law....the family is society in
miniature...it is not just a center of domestic serenity; since it
involves power, it invites the abuse of power, and it is at that
precise point that Jesus attacks it. His ideal group is, contrary to
Mediterranean and indeed most human familial reality,an open one
equally accessible to all under God. " Canadian Lurker Lady (no longer
lurking!)
As I have said earlier, I will be using the Hebrew lection on "So
great a cloud of witnesses" My title is "Substantive faith".
In regard to this Lukan passage, I am interested in the original words
of Jesus. Research has found the saying came from the "Q" document.
There appears to me to be two sayings; one describing division in
family and the other on the predicting the weather vis a vis,
interpreting acturally daily happening.
Luke has used this in his description of Jesus on the way to Jerusalem
and his instructions to the followers along the way. Matthew used
these words in instructions to the Twelve Disciples in Chapter 10.
Only the saying about "brother against brother" is used in Mark's
gsopel. The sayings are also found in the non canon "Gospel of Thomas"
This Sunday I want to share with the congregation I'm visiting with
this sermon, a description of Substantive Faith. This saying of Jesus
seems to indicate an important ingredient of faith with Substance, it
must come from "doing the will of the One who sent Jesus, and that
means a separation from earthly deemed relatives. It is not so
necessary that the division brings war, but perhaps a healthy respect
for the differences. The more I connect with my Savior, the more I
grow to respect all relatives, no matter who they are.
Shalom, bammamma
This is a very tough passage, as most of you have pointed out. It
scares me and discomforts me. But, isn't that part of what the Gospel
is supposed to do?
I have not decided, completely, how to approach the issue of division
that Jesus discusses. We could easily explain it away by saying this
passage is nothing more than an editor's addition to prove some
political point. I would be more inclined to believe such if we were
reading the parallel passage in Matthew 10:34-36. Matthew continues
the discussion. For Matthew, it's a matter of whom the disciple loves
more, Jesus or _______.
My eye is drawn to verses 54-56 regarding seeing the signs of the
times. Someone above noted that Jesus changes the conversation to
discerning the weather. Jesus points out that on our own we predict
the weather, which is fickle and easily misread. But, we cannot see
the work of God, nor interpret the present age/kingdom of God.
See, I told you I don't know how I'm approaching this passage. It is
extremely difficult.
Steve in NC
Pastor Keg,
My pastor says that people tell him often that they don't come to
church because there are too many hypocrties. He says his response is,
"Well, we can always use one more."
~~PC in GA
More hard sayings from Jesus! One way to deal with this is to
reinterpret all this stuff with the OIL framework, "Jesus didn't
really say what he was saying; it was all about love." The other way
was wrestling with it as the first century disciple did, "This is
tough teaching, who can swallow it?" (Jn.6:60)
It is interesting to see Jesus himself understood the difficulty of
his mission, "I came to bring fire to the earth, I have a baptism to
undertake; this is stressing me out!" (v.49-50)
He knew that not everything will be rosy; that the gospel will divide
people of the earth (as it unites the citizen of heaven). That it will
cut deep into the family structure (even though not too deep, notice
that Jesus didn't say anything about husband against wife, and Paul
later on wrote about the whole sanctification if one of them started
with the Gospel).
And Jesus concluded that this division was just a sign of things to
come (v.54-56).
There are times for us to properly separate against the things around
us. Sometimes we over preach the message of incarnation, of
identifying with the world and forget the other side of the gospel;
that we should not be like the world, but be apart from the world as
well; be apart to point to the coming day of Jesus.
In the context of the looking-forward to return of the Master in the
surrounding passages, the separation should be understood as a sign of
his coming. Sadly, seldom can we point to ourselves and say, "We came
from the world, but we are moving away from the world." We are willing
to compromise, not only to keep peace in the family, but even to keep
peace with the world. Instead of separate from the world, we divide
among ourselves (because we are so much like the world).
Yesterday, I sat quietly in the board meeting at our church. Two
prominent board members were at each other throat, fighting against
meaningless details. The truth is they did not disagree over the
details, but they have been holding grudges against one another. So
the details were just an excuse for them to went at each other with
vengance, digging up trash and throw at each other as they went along.
I sat there quietly, head in hands, silently grieve as I pray and wait
for our senior pastor to settle the matter.
We didn't separate from the world too much, we came to church offices
with baggages of pride, of self-preservation, of driven-personality.
We didn't separate from the world too much, and that's why we divided
among ourselves.
It is interesting to see Jesus use the image of fire. Fire consumes
everything. And as everything burned up, they are united in the firery
flame. Fire clearly divided the world into the consumables and
unconsumables. A consumable object will eventually lose its identity
as it was consumed by fire. Are we consumable? Am I willing to let my
identity being consume by the fire as I separate out from the world?
Oh Lord God, consume us with your fire, let us be different than the
usual world's standard. Let us be separate from the world so that we
will not be divisive among ourselves. Let us be separate from the
world so that we will not be separate from You.
Coho, Midway City.
As an outside observer reading your posts - it seems that the Gospel
does indeed cause divisions!
Some dispense with the word, some claim it and aim it at others...
Some force it into their political 'lens'.
Some treat it with serious comtemplation...
I vote for the later - if anyone cares...
Jim Dennis Main St UMC Greenwood SC
Date: 8/9/2004
Time: 9:51:50 AM
Comments
I find it interesting thatI found what, Jim Dennis Main St UMC
Greenwood SC, had to say. I immediately thought yes I do care that he
is reading what those of us who answered a call to ordained ministry
are writing. I'm wondering whether it is just an interest, or is Jesus
calling Jim. Just a thought from one who has a specific call in her
retirement to those entering ministry.
Shalom bammamma
Comments Untold numbers of viewers regularly turn to cable TV's
Weather Channel for updates, feeding their insatiable interest in
weather. With radar and satellites, frontal systems and weather maps,
we have added scientific knowledge to the ability to interpret the
appearance of earth and sky. Jesus doubtless had something different
in mind when he addressed his remarks to the hypocrites in the crowd
in today's gospel. Nonetheless, he wanted his hearers to know that a
storm was brewing.
The stewing images of judgment and destruction--of nature and
community out of joint--are still very disquieting and not easily
interpreted. They are like an abstract painting whose power is
apparent but whose meaning is elusive. Minnesota artist Luc Le Bon
painted a picture suggestively called "Boundary Waters." The bottom
four-fifths of this striking piece consists of alternating zones of
streaked black and smoky white with small patches of green throughout.
The uppermost zone is a contrasting strip of blood red punctuated with
a mottled, hazy yellow disk, suggestive of a squashed sun on the
horizon.
The painting, in spite of its title, eludes precise interpretation,
very much like Jesus' jeremiad in today's passage. In Le Bon's
painting it is not certain whether the sun is rising or setting. In
Jesus' oracle one is not sure whether to cower in fear or seek space
for hope in the midst of the storm. If in faith--not fear--one chooses
the latter, it is essential to remember that no matter how great the
disruption, the victory is ultimately God's. Whatever the shape and
scope of judgment, we are obliged to remember that Jesus has destroyed
death by his death. While we his people live in the midst of death, we
also live in anticipation of new life. Those who have a weather eye
would do well to keep it wide open for signs of God's judgment and
promise during the present and the time to come.
Peace Pastor:
Thank you for your comments! The way I've seen it play out (I'm
thinking of one woman in particular in our congregation, but I know
there are others) is a kind of "root, root, root for the home team,"
or "Rah rah rah, Sis boom Bah - gooooo USA!" This woman went so far as
to put (on the day we went to war) American flags on either side of
her car, much the way fans of college football teams do. It's as if
there isn't some effort to recognize the tragedy of war ... and
instead, find a "cause" to get behind.
I also recall an old boyfriend (I was dating him at the time John
Lennon was killed and the radio played a lot of his music) saying, in
reference to the song, "Imagine," ... "A world like that would be
boring and have no purpose!"
It's pretty sad that we have to declare war to entertain ourselves.
Sally in GA
I love quilts. I know very little about piecing them, but the women in
one of the churches at my first appointment taught me the "quilting"
part of it - and from there I've become increasingly interested in
quilts.
There are regional and demographical discrepencies in this folk art -
and there is a group of women in Alabama in a bend in a river that
still make what is known in the quilting world as "ugly quilts,"
quilts made quickly from old trousers. They were used for things like
horse blankets and floor coverings - to be trampled underfoot - and
are now found to be pearls of great price because they represent a
very specific quilting from a very specific group. Consider Amish
quilts, or the African American quilts - each have their own style.
Some of the early Americans' quilts are batted (the stuffing int he
middle) with old newspapers - and the Western pioneers made quilts out
of that cheap silk cigar ribbons. They saved and hoarded until there
was enough for a quilt - and they got together in a "bee" and quilted,
or just spent years on the project by themselves.
It represents the refusal of the human spirit to be kept "down," and
the ingenuity of women (though there were some famous men quilters,
too) to make a little bit of goods as useful as it coule be.
It also represents how "divisions" can co-exist. Calicoes against
solids against stripes ... arranged to look like a unique piece of
art. Each one is a new opportunity to make a new creation.
Why else would women even care what pattern an "ugly quilt" was in? If
it really were meant to be truly "ugly." Each folk artist ended up
asserting her own creativity in each quilt.
But, hey, nowadays you can buy quilt tops with the pattern printed
right on. Somehow, it's just not the same.
Within unity there is often a great deal of division.
Sally in GA
we have moved from slaves and masters to houses that are divided, and
by the looks of the surrounding content, the divisions will continue,
in this portion of the text atleast...
i would also rather preach on the unity brought about by the presence
of Jesus the Christ, but it is hard to find it sometimes. however, it
raises, along with the hairs on the back of my neck, a number of
observations...
what was happening with this oh so merry band of disciples as they
meandered along together?
jesus, by this time, had sure been booted out of several towns for his
obvious choice of company and words...
i just finished the first night of a series on Christ and culture
(appropriately named, Pop goes the Savior), a few of the things we
covered...
we are called to be transformers of the culture (with God help), this
does not always bode well for unity, we talked about what it meant to
be the lone prophet in the wilderness that everyone thinks is a little
off of their rocker, and we wondered if there were times when they
felt called to be this prophet...
i am reminded of H. Richard Niebuhr's statement, "Though they accept
their station in society with its duties in obedience to their Lord,
they do not seek to modify Jesus Christ's sharp judgment of the world
and all its ways." (Christ and Culture, p.90)
the counter-cultural way of Jesus the Christ was divisive because of
its focus on unity...
grace and peace, niebuhrian in VA
In an episode of The Simpsons, Mr. Burns floats around in a
chemically-induced state repeating, "I bring you peace... I bring you
love..." And isn't that just the kind of Jesus some of us are looking
for? A happy presence who floats around saying "I bring you peace, I
bring you love"? This one adds, "I bring you division and a sword."
Oh. Crud.
I try to console myself with the idea that division is the by-product,
not the purpose, of Jesus' coming. Commitment always produces
division. There will always be external opposition to Jesus and his
followers, and internal argument about who he is and what he does. I
identify this as an existential observation by Jesus, not a goal. The
Bible is realistic about "the way things are."
Still squinting hard to see the grace in this text...
LF
The non-Christians would either be Jews who intended to remain Jews,
or Romans who had the multi-god system (or even all-god, which is what
the Pantheon is all about, right?)
I guess if you believed you were Abraham's child by birthright it
would an amazing shock to the family that you would give that up to
follow an itinerate rabbi away from the family of faith. There have
been cases where Jewish families have declared a Jewish child *dead*
if he or she leaves the faith. They have a funeral and everything.
Those times may be in the past, but it's not that much gone that I
don't recall it happening.
A friend of mine decided she could not be Christian any longer because
her heart wasn't in Jesus. She converted to Judaism and is finding
what she needs there. Her parents are OK with it, but some Christian
friends abandoned her. It works both ways - moving toward Jesus or
abandoning Jesus, both leave people in your dust.
Corn Country
Oh, and then there's the guy in my church who was so intent on his
relationship to Christ that he forgot to pay any attention at all to
his wife and children. He and she are now legally divided. He's also
divided from his job because he forgot to go to it very often because
he was thinking about his relationship to Jesus morning, noon and
night. Yep, Jesus can divide.
Niebuhrian in VA,
I have been thinking about the issue of "Christ and Culture" much
lately. My seminary professor told us that Richard Niebuhr stated the
five basic positions: "Christ Against Culture", "Christ of Culture",
"Christ Above Culture", "Christ and Culture in Paradox", and "Christ
the Transformer of Culture". He told us that half a century ago, his
denomination the Presbyterians embraced the last position; but now in
the assessment of many, it was a failure (in transforming the
culture). So today, my professor continued, there is a new thinking
about some sort of a "paralelling culture", where the church would be
a counter-culture community as opposed to the world, and therefore
would become the witness to the world.
What do you think?
(If this become ditracting to the overall study of the text, perhaps
we can take it offline, but for now, I think the issue is still
relevant to the text...)
Coho, Midway City.
Random thoughts,
First, KHC, if you can't preach on this, ask yourself why?
Second, I am using this one and Isiah. Actually, I think this passage
is so appropriate, who knew the "lectionary" would make sense when
whoever orders the passages in that 3 year way, would work. We are
DIVIDED here in the states... And a nation divided cannot stand.
Something prophetic came to me this week. What we are experiencing is
WAY WORSE that 1860-1865!!! IT WON'T be IRaq, Saddam, Afcan, BIn
Laden, Terroist, Bush,Kerry, etc who will destroy us...It will be OUR
DIVISION! John Wesley is a UNITY pusher...I agree...Unity in all
things!
We are divided Republicans hate the Democrats. and vice versa...Bush
needs to go is the Liberal Consensus.
I am not either...I am Biblical...I agree with Dr. Andrew Park
Professor at United Seminary and author of the the book The Wounded
Heart of God. Christians need to be the watchdogs on both parties.
Now, one really can't be independent in the USA, no third party makes
it. and Ralph Nador LOL! Most of us if we admit it chose the party we
belong to because of Family History, or State affliation, or rebelling
against family.
I have made a new party name---Republicrat or Demicon... I think I
will be one of those!
Even Pat Robertson, moral moajority guy, said that there are christian
democrats...LOL I am christian, and render unto BUSH what is Bush's or
Kerry's.
Now, Caligula, existed when Jesus was leaving earth and earth church
was beginning...God could have taken him out, but He didnt cause THE
CHURCH needed to be about more important business then politics! Keep
that in mind!
Clerically Blonde in west ohio
Coho-
thank you for your response, it proposes an interesting addition to
Niebuhr's original five categories. As a Presbyterian myself, I am not
sure how much we have truly stuck with the "transforming"
idea/category/way of life as a denomination, but the idea of
paralleling is intriguing...
i am curious about the idea, and wonder how it (paralleling) would
differ from other categories because it would have to steer clear of
rejection (against culture) and accomodation (of culture) which are
the two polemic places that i fear we tread most often today...
i would be interested in hearing more (whether here or elsewhere)
about your professor's ideas...
i was strolling around the church building and ruminating on this
unity and division thing, and I remembered...
"i am a uniter not a divider"
this over-used under practiced statement is often thrown around by
political canidates, sometimes with good intentions, sometimes as
fluff, but when reality hits, division is more likely to happen than
unity...
i continue to look for grace in this passage as well (thanks for
reminding me LF)... i think the hardest part of looking for it is that
i always look for the community/communal/relationship aspect of Jesus'
words and here there is little to hang on to, save that my community
is better than your community (nyah, nyah)
this is becoming longer than it needs to be...
i wonder how stressful it was for Jesus the Christ to see his words
and life bring division instead of unity to the very humanity he had
such compassion for... these words carried an angry/outrage tone when
i first read them... i wonder if anyone else felt that...
niebuhrian in va
To unsigned poster,
I don't beleive God tells anyone to move out of a marriage to "find
themselves" of become closer to God. What you spouse is doing is
blaming God to quell any objections-remember that Adam ultimately
blames God (it was the woman YOU gave me).
You have a tough road to travel, but it's not God's fault. In fact,
he'll be your companion for the journey and so will we.
Pr.del in Ia
The gospel inevitably brings on conflict -- with those of other
faiths; with those of little or no faith; with those of our own faith
who forget Jesus' admonitions to "turn the other cheek" or to "be on
guard against all kinds of greed"(v.15) or who put loyalty to family
or country before loyalty to God; with members of our own family who
place a different value on service to the kingdom, the importance of
worship, use of time and talents in war against poverty and hunger,
etc. We even face conflict with ourselves as we struggle to remain
free of hate against a politician whose policies we oppose, a
misguided terrorist, or one who has wronged us somehow.
But is there good news here? I think it's certainly good news to
parents of children who have either lost their faith or committed an
act clearly out of keeping with the way of Christ who come to us and
ask, "We brought him/her in the faith, taught him/her to love the
Lord. What did we do wrong?" The answer is: "You didn't do anything
wrong. Jesus predicted this. As he faced disappointment and
opposition, so will we who are his followers." Might it even be that
experiencing conflict when adopting the way of Christ in a certain
situation is an assurance that we being faithful? Paul in MN
To the person who wrote “this past week my husband moved out”, I
immediately started praying for you! I started praying that Christ’s
will be done in you and your family’s life. My situation is the same
(but different) so I’m identifying with you.
One pericope we haven’t mentioned while discussing this statement of
Jesus, it is the one where Jesus was approached by his disciples and
told that his mother, brothers and sisters were outside. Jesus reply
was “who is my mother brothers and sisters. Those that do the will of
the One who sent me.
One more thing to the anonymous poster: My hope and prayer is that you
will not follow anyone else's directions (including mine) accept the
One that God sent.
bammamma
Early thoughts (I can't believe how many precede me! It's only Monday)
I think I hear not anger but anguish in Jesus' words. It isn't that
division SHOULD come or that God wants it so, but Jesus recognizes it
WILL come. As he wept over Jerusalem for their past treatment of
prophets, so he weeps for the division which will follow because he
brings Truth and Justice. Some will accept the new relationship God
offers and some will deny it. Families will be rent and God's heart
broken again. Jesus is under stress because he knows the inevitable
result of his coming. He also knows the eternal result, so he wishes
it were already started. Sounds harsh, but perhaps there is hope there
too. Still ruminating where to go with it. It's ONLY monday! tom in
TN(USA) p.s. thanx to those who commented kindly on my epistle post
last week. God is good!
tom in TN
i like the sense of anguish, i think that fist better than anger or
outrage, though i can see a little of each in the statement. but
anguish fits what i sense very well, thank you...
i guess, going back to what LF wrote...
how does one find grace in the midst of anguish???
niebuhrian in va
Peace Pastor et all. I love this site, funny how when Jesus gets on a
soap box all us preacher types want to as well. Any body got an axe to
grind, this is the sunday!!! Our boss man did it once in a while maybe
we should too!
In the lutheran church I just say it is our punishment for not taking
Mary more seriously. Look what we get instead &^$#*#@!
O BTW Peace Pastor you said, "War is the ultimate excitement. Chris
Hedges says that soldiers and war correspondents become addicted to
the thrill and adrenaline rush of war."
Who the heck is Chris Hedges? and y'all are probably much smarter than
me, but for 20 years I served as a Chaplain in the U.S. Army. Soldiers
who became addicted to the thrill and adrenaline rush of war were
soldiers we did our best find other employment.
War sux! pardon my french, whoops another touchy subject, War sux, ask
a soldier. Why do we call the greatest generation the greatest
generation? Because they went off on an adrenaline junkie high of
worldly preportions? No because war sux, but they went for us. This is
lay down your life for friends stuff, (rememeber the words of Jesus?)
OK I'm down now, soapboxes are lonely places.
Proud (yeah I know that is sinful) to be a VFW, proud to have served,
proud of my (rather unpopular)political party.
Trying to find the love of Jesus shining through this difficult
passage.
PBOB is SC
I have preached on this text at least five times. One way is to
concentrate of the first verse. "I came to bring fire to the earth,
and how I wish it were already kindled! talk about the restorative
power of fire. (Yellowstone is in good shape now from the fires that
we thought would destroy it.) Some tree seeds need that fire to burn
off their "protective" coatings! you get the drift
God's fire is meant to purify! or
using this verse, I have a baptism with which to be baptized, and what
stress I am under until it is completed!
When forest fires loom close to houses what do people do? dump water,
lots of water on everthing they own. Hey guess what because Jesus owns
us he has dumped water on us Baptism (hey it even works for lightly
watered christians like me)
Because we are wet with God's love the fires won't get us!!!
wasserman
Clerically Blonde,
I believe I did address why I can't preach on this with any degree of
conviction.
KHC
OH, OH, OH, want to and an evangelical flair. JC was pretty hyped up,
perhaps we should be to that we might dump water on as many folk as we
can before the storm comes! 'could even tie this in with how folks go
nuts getting ready for really bad weather!
Hypocrites, why not have same zeal for saving (baptizing) people!!!
woman in mission
I'm watching the news as I peruse the posts and I find it quite ironic
that during commercial times, an ad for a candidate was about
marriage. The candidate suggests we look at the first book of the
Bible - and he says that "marriage is for companionship, procreation,
and to show Jesus' love to the world."
Uh ... Since when is Jesus' love by way of marriage mentioned in
Genesis? Or anywhere else, for that matter?
Now the division is extending to biblical eisegesis.
Sally in GA
One last thought ... and then I'll quit:
Why is it when we FACE opposition, we automatically think we're
"unpopular" or "dissed" or being antagonized? I'm only guessing PBOB's
unpopular political party, but I'd venture to say that it's pretty
popular in some arenas not here.
I liked your post, PBOB, and it's the point I was trying to make about
my distaste for "Rah rah rah, sis boom bah" rooting for our victory in
war. Real people are losing real lives and real loved ones grieve for
them.
Sally in gA - for the first time, I think, part of a "popular"
political party. Feels good for a change; I've gotten a lot of flack
for being a Dem. - from my family to the people in the communities I
serve. Now, I guess I made it to the popular group - whew! and it only
took me 42 years. (I hope you hear me chuckling because I intend this
good naturedly)
A few random reflections from a first-time visitor:
The Cross is the hammer of God that shatters injustice, oppression,
and self-concern -- but it's a hammer that comes down on His Son.
If love is real and final, then it's really sin that:
1. divides families 2. mandates judgment 3. requires atonement
From Michael Hoy (crossings.org): "The truth is that Jesus' new trail
to the cross was not to create more divisions, but to heal a very deep
division--between ourselves and God."
ILLUS: Sailors can now check real-time, animated weather satellite
images on the web. No need to check the forecast anymore -- you can
see it for yourself.
ILLUS: Forest fires are fought by two methods: backfires & tons of
water (you take it from there).
Thanks for all prior postings. With prayers for the one whose husband
left her...your eternal Husband will "...never fail or forsake you."
Rev. 21 gives a wonderful picture of exactly that.
-- Sunset Watcher in Watch Hill, RI
wasserman
I loved the way your post dealing with fire and baptism related to
your name, if that name comes from the German, literally, water man!
Michelle
Michelle
Ya, das ist richtig, my church is currently emphasizing baptism. Not
that it is new, M. Luther was quoted as saying, "When you wash your
face, remember your baptism." and I have the refrigerator magnet to
prove it! My sign, if you go for such is Aquarius, so I figured, for a
worthy site such as DPS why not wasserman for a handle (CB Lingo.)
After all isn't baptism where we get our identity?
Back to the passage, perhaps Jesus is being somewhat harsh, but I
think it is because he knows that his audience knows what is right,
yet chooses instead to ignore the coming kingdom to stay in their
current comfortable situation. Gee, some good homilitician could sure
draw some parallels there!
We must remember with difficult passages that Jesus didn't give up or
condem his audience, rather he loved them so much he died for them
instead.
Peace, Wasserman.
Sally in GA, you said, "Real people are losing real lives and real
loved ones grieve for them." Amen to that, we've removed four names
from our prayer list of deployed persons (in the cause of freedom) one
could argue with the parenthetical phrase, but we choose to honor
their service. Two were removed because they came home at the end of
their deployment. Two were removed because they hopefully went to
their heavenly home.
Its hard, I've been there before, with the families, and thought
retirement from military service would spare me the anguish of
ministry to combat casuality families, but alas, our sinful world will
not relent in inflicting pain.
As far as this Jesus quote and Luke are concerned, I will probably try
to focus on how we possibly upset Jesus by knowing what we should do
but fail to do. Sins of omission if you will or even commsission even
when we know it is wrong. Like kids sometimes do to test parents, or
even with a mean streak. Ain't going to be easy, but the struggle
usually makes for a better message.
Here is to strugling!!
PBOB in SC
Well, I asked early on what the good news is in this passage. A church
member and I talked about it this morning. The good news is that God
gives us a choice. We can choose Jesus and be purified by fire, such
as impurities are removed from gold by fire; or we can not choose
Jesus and be in the eternal fire, which as someone has said on this
site consumes everything. What do you think? PH in OH
Sally in GA
Haven't seen that commerical yet. Obviously uninformed commerical
writer. I wonder who proofs the copy? Perhaps someone should call that
political party's national number and let them know that they are way
off base. For the good of the party, of course.
Just as an aside Jesus never said anything about homosexuality, good
or bad. His main message was about love and unity. It seems odd to say
that in view of this weeks' text!
I am trying to decide whether to preach about unity/disunity, division
in ECUSA. Or I might go with the "run with preseverance the race"
using Olympic imagery. The focus/energy it takes to be a world class
athlete and the focus it takes to be a world class christian.
Early musings
Nancy HB
A wise person once told me the best time to remember your baptism is
int eh shower not only for the water but becasue you are buck naked as
you were when you entered the world, and Jesus loves you even with the
flab, potbelly and moles Blessings Pastor Keg
Clerically Blonde:
I wouldn't say I share your political position ... or usually your
theological position (at least as it appears on this site -- I know
we're all more complex than just this site could show...) -- but I DO
have a word for you!
When I was in high school (lo these many years :~) ), a somewhat wacky
fringe politician came to our social studies class. He referred to
himself as an "Elephadonk" ... drawing on the traditional
Elephant/donkey imagery for the GOP/Dems.
:~) Squeeze
just checking in a even gladder that i'm preahing mary this week.
surprised by how many divisions are mentioned by us. politically, our
understanding of the sexuality issue, war, patriotism, etc... and yet
here we are all together, for what it's worth.
loved sally's image of the quilt. wrote a funeral sermon for my g-mom
about God's love being like a quilt (she was an avid quilter and i
inherited most of her unfinished work). so many different pieces put
together don't just make art but create warmth and comfort.
sometimes there has to be division first, to find unity (with the
exception perhaps of our unsigned friend whose husband is... well, i
shouldn't post that word. my heart goes out to you and you are in my
prayers. may you find blessings even in this painful time.)
God's peace all... and anyone who has any good stuff on mary, mother
let me know
christine at the shore
PBOB,
Thanks for the insight from a REAL veteran.
~~PC in GA
Why is there no father-in-law mentioned in verse 53 above? Do they get
along better with people?
Why doesn't the son (who is married) have his own house? Why isn't the
daughter married and moved out?
I got along better with my mother in law that with my own mom some
times. They are both gone now and I miss them dearly.
My family has been pretty unified with their spiritual life (almost
all were liturgical protestants of some flavor). When I became a
Baptist, I drew sharper divisions but I've mellowed some.
I leave you with this parting thought:
Atheists don't recognize the existence of God.
Unitarians don't recognize the existence of the trinity.
Baptists don't recognize each other in the liquor store.
~~Peachy Preacher (Errare Humanum Est)
Nancy HB - Y'know, I was so shocked at the MESSAGE that I didn't even
catch the candidate's name. Of course, I was only half-listening
because I was here, too.
I think you're right, and it seems it would be easy enough to do. I
really don't care to support that particular party, but I care deeply
about correct representation of Scripture!!!
Sally
This text, especially in light of its preceding parable and
explanation about preparedness (vs. 35-48), indicates that the people
whom Jesus encountered were unprepared for him and his mission. The
sharpness of Jesus' rhetoric, however, indicates that the problem is
more than being unprepared. The people really did not want to be
prepared for anything new—that is, they preferred the status quo of
chronological living. Keeping the status quo means keeping to a
minimum anything that disrupts (like divisions—and there is lots of
division-talk in Jesus' words) is to "manage" conflict. Thus,
"managing" conflict is often controlling conflict so as not to let it
get out of control. Where would the world be otherwise?
Jesus calls the crowds "hypocrites" (v. 56)—which has the connotation
of being "less-than-critical." The truth is that there is a crisis
before them, and they are unable to recognize its signs. While they
may be able to make small-talk on the weather (vs. 54-55), they are
unable to recognize the new wind and flaming fire that has come on the
scene in the presence of Jesus. Their spirits have been effectively
snuffed out by their longing to avoid crisis, to maintain the status
quo.
That behavior and unfaith, however, does not dissuade the approaching
crisis. A crisis is not simply between human beings—it is divine in
its significance. God is the one who is causing the stir, and the
ramifications for the people (then and there, here and now) is that
none of them will be able to bear the heat of God's passionate wrath
in the crisis that is before them. Jesus does step aside from that
crisis, but places himself into the midst of it—for us and for our
benefit. To face the fiery wrath of God is to be refined—and for Jesus
the price for refining is death. That is the baptism of Jesus. But
Jesus' "stress" for its "completion" is for our benefit (v. 50)! Jesus
wants to see us through the crisis and have our lives preserved
through the process of refining. Through his own passion and death,
Jesus gives himself to provide for our safe passage. Our own baptisms,
joined with his death and resurrection, brings us through the refining
and into new life.
What kindles our hearts anew in faith is to have the assurance that we
are, indeed, kindred. The new judgment that rests on our lives is not
critical, but promising. That frees us, of course, to accept the
criticism; but it also empowers us to live beyond it. Our status is
redefined, and we are not left in the "state in which" we were, but
now live with a new hope of a homeland "whither" we are going—from
status quo to status quod!
As rejuvenated beings, we begin to blaze new trails. The truth is that
Jesus' new trail to the cross was not to create more divisions, but to
heal a very deep division—between ourselves and God. Our new trails
with our Lord will surely lead us into conflict (even in the struggle
within ourselves—that struggle is itself a sign of faith!). But our
mission, like our Lord's, is to bring his peace to bear on the world,
living kairologically (explosively) in the present time. Where would
the world be otherwise?!
Michael Hoy
Michael Hoy says " Jesus calls the crowds "hypocrites" (v. 56)—which
has the connotation of being "less-than-critical."
The term hypocrite comes from the Greek hypokrites, meaning actor. A
synonym is Pharasaical, which I find interesting.
Corn Country
I don't really see negatives in the passage. I think of it in
parenting terms. Most of the time when we are raising our children, we
gently guide them along as the grow and learn, but... once in awhile,
we have to raise our voices and be more stern (for a multitude of
reasons) and then put up with "you're mean...or...I hate
you...or...Jeremy's dad is nicer than you." We do this because we love
them and want to keep them from straying too far.
To the anonymous poster: I, too, will be praying for you. I've been in
the same boat and am currently helping (I think) someone from church
whose husband just left her and four teenagers so he can sow wild
oats.
To christine at the shore: I am assuming that you are using Luke
1:39-56. I see the Song of Mary as her personal testimony to being
reborn. Would that view be helpful to you? S†eve (Oregon)
Collegues in Christ:
As a Canadian, I have a different view on the American Invasion of
Iraq than either the republicans or the democrats. This is where I
think the gospel reaches out and touches our global village.
The way to justice and peace does not resonate well with the weak
heared or weak kneed. It reaches out to embrace those who are deemed
to be unembraceable in our midst.
A couple of years ago business interests in one locality petitioned
Toronto, Ontario city council to close a church run hostel because the
inhabitants were bad for business and driving the tourists away. These
poor marganlized men who suffer from the health issues of poverty and
alcoholism, drug dependency and and mental health issues were
invisible to the business community who only wanted to see the rich
tourists.
Likewise, the collabaration between the Bin Laden and Bush Families
has been well documented. Most of the world views the Iraq invasion as
more of an oil grab rathen than a blow for terrorism. (Arguments could
be made for the invasion being an end to a mad despot, however they
never entered the public debate prior to the invasion) It is also true
that some good might come out of aforesaid invasion.
However this gospel lesson calls on the christian family to embrace
the Bin Ladens of this world in a hug of peace that injustices done to
them and theirs might also be rectified.
I realize proclaiming that Bin Laden needs to be understood in love
would be contentious in Canada never mind the USA. Such procalmation
would also bring division in my own household and family. However if
is true for these bigger issues think how much more divisive the
smaller issues that we feel we can understand might be.
While a shark can bite a chunk of cow and kill it, thousands of black
flies in North Eastern Alberta can kill a cow as well with their many
tiny bites. The call is for solidarity within the body of Christ
calling us to realize the status quo is the way of death.
I wonder what would have happened if the Evangelican Lutheran Church
in America, The Evangelical Lutheran Church in Canada (my ordaining
body) and the Lutheran Churches in the middle east and Africa banded
together and said enough, It is time for peace and worked together for
that reality.
What would have happened if the Lutherans in Europe and The Americas
banded together during WWII and said enough.
Son will rise up against father and their will be division, for a
while and then there will be peace. This is the good news proclaimed
in this passage
A Candian Lurker
Date: 8/10/2004
Time: 11:01:07 AM
Comments
Canadian Lurker, What would a cow be doing swimming in the shark
infested waters of an ocean? It's the flies you need to watch out for,
the little common everyday bitings and botherings that build up to
make us all mad cows. metaphors be wit you, magi in the middle
Date: 8/10/2004
Time: 11:11:24 AM
Comments
magi in the middle, I call all those little nips from all around
"being stoned to death with popcorn"
KHC
Date: 8/10/2004
Time: 11:25:01 AM
Comments
Dear Canadian Lurker did you leave out the Missouri synod on purpose
smiles....Pastor Keg
After all the sniping over politics I wonder if any of us are in any
way saved. I include myself in that because even if I did not jump
into the fray with keyboard in hand I have thought some very divisive
things.
Grace, peace, and division, Mike in Sunshine (holding my own tongue on
many things this week)
In the spirit of division begun by the Reformers:
August 15 is the feast day that celebrates the idea that Mary was
taken to heaven without tasting death or that her body was taken into
heaven shortly after her daeth....thus the Assumption of Mary.
There are lots of other words used in Roman Catholoicism that don't
mean what people think.
The virgin birth refers to the miracle that Mary's hymen was preserved
through childbirth and she remained a virgin throughout her life.
The immaculate conception is the idea that Mary was conceived without
sin and preserved from sin so that she would not pass the sin nature
on to Jesus.
I am uncomfortable when services focus on Mary and not the fruit of
her womb. Just the reformer in me.
~~Peachy Preacher
I know the lectionary reading stops at verse 56, but I am considering
continuing the reading through the end of the chapter. Jesus talks
about being quickly reconciled. I wonder if that could be the hope and
the good news? What do you think?
I know that the lectionary reading ends with verse 56, but I am
considering continuing through the end of the chapter. Jesus talks
about making peace quickly. Could that be the good news? What do you
think?
Bill
~~Peachy Preacher writes: "I am uncomfortable when services focus on
Mary and not the fruit of her womb. Just the reformer in me."
I think the purpose in the Lutheran Church is not to venerate Mary,
but to hold her up as an example and to speak of how we can be Christ
bearers to the world.
Pr.del in Ia
The saying is still there, “Think not that I have come to bring peace,
but a sword”. I came not to bring peace but a sword, to be used to
accurately divide us.
I comprehend this as a hard saying for us to hear because Jesus words
must correspond to our own faith, and our way(s) of salvation, whether
that way is conservative thinking, democratic ways, orthodox methods,
systematic progress, processed theology, or any other ideology. I
suspect we think that if every body would think the same way as us,
then everything would be perfect.
But I’m beginning to think Jesus didn’t want us to think alike. “Jesus
loves me” is an admission of all those who know Him, no matter how
different they are. His kingdom as shown Him by his relationship with
“Abba,’’ included difference and diverse persons. All are willing to
do the will of the One who sent Jesus. In this Jesus family, each
would have their own place. Each uniquely made for the continued
creativity of the Universe, whether divided in two ages, or “world
without end”
All the persons who followed Jesus were uniquely different, and
included rich, poor, male, female, Jew and Gentile. Within the
Scriptures we have Jesus’ encounter with all of these, from Anna the
Prophetess to Zachariah the tax collector.
I trust this Jesus, and I am willing to be divided by Christ’ sword.
As an example, my daughter in law is as unique and separate from me as
Jesus described in this Q saying. Every time I visit with my
granddaughters I say, “Praise God from whom all blessings flow!
Shalom
Bammamma
According to the Scriptures, Mary was present at all of the important
events in her Son's life: in the birth cycle, at the first miracle at
Cana, at the cross, at the tomb, with the apostles after the ascension
waiting for the Spirit. Except for traditions, nothing is known of her
parentage or the place or date of her death. August 15 has been
observed since early times as the day of what the Eastern church calls
her "falling asleep," i.e. her death. Luther retained a special
affection for Mary and wrote a splendid exposition of the Magnificat.
The other days on the calendar associated with Mary--The Presentation
of Our Lord, The Annunciation of Our Lord, The Visitation--are
festivals of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Faithful to the last, Mary has been important to Christian devotion
throughout history because in her, the God-bearer, is seen a
representation of the church itself. Mary's song (the Magnificat) is
the gospel for the festival of Mary, Mother of Our Lord. It is a
powerful statement of justice, still apt for us today as we come with
our own neediness to experience God's justice and mercy in word and
sacrament.
Bill:
One of the most powerful sermons I heard had the pericope stop at a
point prior to the grace-full resolution. It was about King Darius'
night of insomnia after being lured into sentencing Daniel to the
Lion's Den. The refrain she (the preacher) used was the sattraps' and
presidents' comment to Darius when he expressed remorse: "Know, O
King, the law of the Medes and the Persians cannot be changed." It was
about his bad decision, and his realizing it, and how we all have
those nights.
Likewise, don't we all face sometimes painful divisions as a result of
our beliefs? Sometimes it can be a powerful thing to allow ourselves
not just to examine the rough stuff, but to link it to life. Think of
it in the Baby-boomer generation terms: Before the songwriter wrote
the song, "Teach Your Chidlren Well," there was very real and painful
division among families - mostly over the Vietnam war.
While it's true that the ultimate word is that of grace, it's
sometimes also good to acknowledge the conflict that occurs before
grace is pronounced.
Sally in GA
Jesus does not call us to division, but rather into unity. Problems
come when we value our own opinion over our relationship. How many of
us believe it is more important to be right than to value a
relationship. The division in this scripture comes when some people
choose Christ and others do not. PH in OH
In thinking about the unsigned statement made about persons making
choices, and being either in or out, and excluding Jesus from the
process, if based Scripturally I suppose it would be either Matthew
25:31 "separating the sheep and the goats," or John 10:16, "other
sheep in another fold".
I start with a conclusion that humanity is God's creation with grace
properties. In all of God's sheepfold, there is sheep/goat
possibilities, and with the pruning comes new creation. I rather not
excuse my own inadequacies by scapegoating other vineyards or folds.
Shalom bammamma
Pr. del,
I believe mother Mary is to be regarded as highest of all women. I'm
glad Lutherans do spend time talking about her. My Baptist brothers
and sisters only talk about her briefly at Christmas and it is their
loss.
The key is as you say, "veneration." I don't pray to or through her. I
am thankful that she was obedient and willing to bring Jesus into the
world under such unusual circumstances.
~~Peachy Preacher (looking for my Lutheran Rosary)
I'm not preaching this Sunday (I'm part time in a small church, and
the congregation shares the burden and joy of preaching) ... but was
discussing this passage today w/ the person who *is* preaching. One
thing we struck upon is the fact that division is not necessarily a
terrible thing. In our congregation ... there's very little of it. I
serve a blessedly liberal-minded open and affirming radically
inclusive congregation, which is right up my alley. The only group we
don't include (whether willfully or just by accident of geography and
demographics ...) is conservatives. I don't want to change the basic
justice-loving culture of my congregation, but I do think that one
area of growth would be for us to include some folks who don't
necessarily think like we do....
just some thoughts...
~Squeeze
bammamma and others~ your last post prompted me to remembering this
text.
Then Simeon blessed them and said to his mother Mary, "This child is
destined for the falling and rising of many in Israel, and to be a
sign that will be opposed so that the inner thoughts of many will be
revealed - and a sword will pierce your own soul too." Luke 2:34-35
these words of simeon seem a connection to the text assigned for this
week; a fulfillment of his prophecy. i came not to bring peace, but a
sword, a tool to divide people from other people and people from their
own selves. if you take the idea of a sword literally, it's purpose is
to cut a person... severe them.
i don't know if this is helpful to any of you; but for me as i
continue to think about mary's place in the history of our faith it
struck a cord.
being a xtian is not an easy thing. it means that we have to trust in
things that are unseen, do things which might be against our nature to
do (and vice-versa), etc.
it must have been difficult for mary to agree to this thing that God
wanted her to do, difficult to raise the son of God (how do you
discipline God's son?), difficult to stand at the cross of her child.
what division she must have experienced, and yet she was willing to be
God's handmaiden.
"Here am I, the servant of the Lord; let it be with me according to
your word." Luke 1:38
willingness. are we willing to follow even when storms hit and
divisions occur?
God's peace (even in all it's division) christine at the shore
Division and conflict are not conditions that we set out to create,
but they happen nonetheless. They happen because of actions rather
than inaction. I’m thinking of pursuing this theme of action/conflict
as follow-on to last week’s theme of readiness. God is acting in the
world, and division happens. When we are open to the presence of God
and act ourselves in a ways that live out the kingdom of God, division
happens (sometimes in our families or our churches). Unity is often
like the thin crust over a lava flow, sometimes its hard enough and
cool enough to walk on, but there is fire just beneath the surface, it
may only melt the soles of your shoes, or it may crack and you’ll be
lucky to get away just a little toasted. I am an intermittent
seminarian (I’ll finish one day, I promise) and I relish the preaching
opportunities that come my way. I often get hard lessons like this one
MM in Sachse Tx
bammamma, christine, and PH in OH ...
you all are *hot* this week! Good discussion. Thank you for stretching
my growth.
Sally in GA
Dear Posters Who Are Beating Up Oil -
I have trouble trusting a conversation in which people not only
discount a fellow poster's views, but actively discourage him or her
from continuing in the conversation.
Remember. Whenever we think Jesus is in our little circle, we will
soon find Christ speaking and acting with the the ones I think are
outsiders!!
Keep on greasing the squeeky wheels, Oil, whether I agree with you or
not.
--Ponderin' Pastor in WI
Pastor in BC, Canada,
Thank you for you kind words. It was a real struggle to stay out of
politics and other such things and get the gist of what I believe
Jesus is getting at. I am again no expert.
I have over the last year developed a two pronged approach to
invitations. It was not original to me. I simply felt ill at ease
assuming all were non-believers or all were believers. So I began to
end each sermon with an invitation to both. You can easily open it up
for Christians at any point along the journey to take the next step.
Unfortunately, I take the full text into the pulpit with me. I try to
have my text by Thursday so I can have some time to work on the
delivery and make some eye contact without being a slave to the page.
I am not as animated as many would like for me to be but then again it
is hard to please everyone.
Thanks again for your consideration!
Grace and peace, Mike in Sunshine
To Mike in Sunshine:
I too used to preach a full text; but one windy day day early in my
ministry my notes got away, (really, it did happen!) and from then on,
while I do write out my sermons, I now deliver them with no notes at
all.
That being said, I do, however, find an archived hard copy to look at
later, especially using the lectionary, is quite helpful every three
years.
So...were you able to take some time to look at what I wrote? Please,
tell me what you thought, both the good (if there is any) and the bad.
Pastor in BC, Canada, eh!
*sigh* I wasn't going to post on this, but I'm in agreement with
another DPS-er (from a previous post this week) that the anti-oil
posts are even more aggravating than their source. It creates a
negativity that I simply don't need. The fact that many of them are
unsigned speaks of someone who wants to slam someone else in
anonymity. It does nothing to build and only creates division (isn't
that what this text is about) and animostiy and a generally negative
tone. Please stop, for all our sakes.
Sally in GA
Pastor Buzz from TN has written a reflection on Isa iah 5 that was
quite helpful in understanding Isaiah's prophesy concerning Yahweh's
vinyards bringing forth wild grapes that he calls "Kudzu
Christianity." I like the description, and see it as a possibility of
the false divisions (I see Jesus "sword" as positive) that I hear many
of my fellow dps'ers describing. I find his post, enlightening. Shalom
bammamma
Keg: Regarding "all those hypocrites in church", my response has been,
"at least there is a place for us we can call home." Those who would
rather worship on the golf course or in the fishing boat need to hear
that while God may be doing a very creative thing in nature, the
saving event is accomplished through word and sacrament. Jesus
absolutely promises to meet us in scripture and in sacrament. That you
can count on. Should Jesus Christ contact you personally to invite you
to lunch down on the corner at 12:00 noon on Tuesday, it would behoove
you to be down at the corner cafe at noon on Tuesday. Jesus does
command just that--only the time is more likely to be Sunday morning.
Take, eat, this is my body given for you. Take, drink, this is my
blood. This cup is the new covenant in my blood shed for you and for
all people for the forgiveness of sin. DO THIS for the remembrance of
me. Jesus comes to us with grace and forgiveness in word, sacrament,
sermon and hymn not to mention in the support and encouragement of our
fellow Christians. My question back--Is there a place on earth where
we can find a gathering of non-hypocrites? Is there anybody out there
who is not a hypocrite? Yee-gads, what hypocrites! SS in MN.
I don't need to come to a church to be with Jesus. I can read the word
on my own.
I don't need a priest/pastor to say any hocus pocus over the bread and
wine to make it contain or become anything more than bread and wine.
I don't need organ music with archaic language set to disjointed
"artsy fartsy" melodies to lead me in worship and praise. Just because
it's old doesn't make it good.
I also don't need electric guitars and keyboards and drums. Making it
louder doesn't make it better.
I don't need projectors, lights and cameras and microphones to hear
God's word. It's hard to see the light when lights are all you see.
I do not need pledge envelopes shoved in my face by the pushy
stewardship committee.
Having said all that,
I do want friends who challenge my opinions in love and which makes us
both stronger for it. I do not want to forsake our assembly as some
have done.
For this reason, I meet at a place where other people of a similar
mind gather one or more times a week to lift each other up in prayer
and sing spiritual songs to God. We do remember what Jesus did and
commemorate it with bread and wine. No mumbo jumbo. We are all part of
a royal priesthood. Apostolic succession is plot to keep power in the
hands of the clergy.
~~a Generation "W" person
sola gratia
sola fide
sola scriptura
Pastor in BC,
When I first started preaching I just read and pondered. It wasn't
that I believed it was the spiritual thing to do, it was just I was
not very organized and writing a sermon each week even if I didn't use
it seemed overwhelming. Then I went to prison. Okay, I was a chaplain
and got to go home each night so it is not as dramatic as it sounds.
But I did very little preaching there so I didn't have to prepare as I
would each week.
When it became evident that my position would be cut I knew I was
headed back into the preaching ministry. I was very much convicted to
raise the level of my sermon preparation. When I got located it was as
if there wasn't a choice from God on the matter. It took some getting
used too, but now I don't know why anyone would have set through one
of my previous sermons. I preach from more texts and utilize more
angles than I even dreamed possible before.
I am in a situation now where I think even though my "style" of
delivery isn't what is desired it will have good effect in the long
run. Preachers have aparently just got up to speak with little
preparation before. In fact that was one of the big complaints to me.
My two congregations were left biblically hungry and bereft in
Wesleyan theology. Having a text that is put on my pastoral web page
has proven to be useful on many fronts for several reasons.
My sermons are both comforting and confrontational. And the record I
leave behind by posting each sermon for the world to see serves as a
testimony for or against me. I have been accused of being a heretic, a
liberal and other unfriendly names when in reality I am one of the
most orthodox Wesleyans in my district in Western North Carolina.
I have no room to brag about what I do. There are many better
preachers and pastors than me. I simply believe God put me here for a
reason and that my work is going to help at least one church to grow.
The wonderful thing that is going on now is that we have a group
meeting in both churches and we are taking for discussion one of John
Wesley's sermons per week. People are coming alive to what Wesley
intended for his church. They are saying even through the 18th century
language the spirit of his preaching is relevant.
I invite you to visit my pastoral homepage if you would like to see
more of my sermons or other resources I keep there for all to see.
Grace and peace, Mike in Sunshine
sally, i get the feeling that you and i would be great friends if we
weren't geographically challenged. and not just because you say such
nice things about me.
God's peace, christine at the shore
My oh my, I came to this site only recently and now I am addicted!
I made a posting early this week and couldnt come back until now!
Yikes! It took me forever to read through all the postings, great
postings too! Very helpful except for one..... Christine at the
Shore...Yes you! For you reminded me that I too was using the Mary
text and not the Luke/Jesus/divide us into little groups...... I so
enjoyed all the postings on the Luke?Jesus texts that I began to wish
I was preaching on them but then began to panic and wish there was a
site for discussion on the Mary text... Thank you and God bless you
that you all posted your (divided) opinions on that and her!! Enough
to get me thinking enough to begin to formulate a sermon..Thanxs all
again!
But Just a few general comments. I would chime in with others, please
sign your posts with something and not just a bomb dropping anonymous
cut.
I find it interesting how many luterans are on this site for I too am
partial to martin.
To a Canandian Lurker...what the heck are you talking about? injustice
to Bin Laden???
If all the Lutherans in the ELCA, CLC, LWF and even the LCMS banded
together and said much of anything the rest of the world would yawn at
best and more likely ignore us as they do already. As a transformer of
culture as the Presbyterians have said, the church is irrelevant and
especially toothless. And sharks and cows? hmmm
Ok enough said, have I caused any divisions yet?
OMG
First - I apologize for that post; I waaaay overreacted and even read
into W's post that which wasn't there. It just happened to stir up a
conversation I had not long ago about the difficulty with marriages
today being due to the church not teaching the submission of women. I
apologize for linking up "W" to that.
Second - I want to give Tammy a hug and say welcome back .... so,
here's a cyber-hug (((((Tammy)))))
christine - *smile* thanks! I've enjoyed your posts. E-mail me at
Revsallyo@aol.com
Sally in GA
To be honest, I believe Oil's posts have improved, no longer sounding
like he is ranting and raving, but honestly improving. I believe he
(and yes, OIL is a he) will continue to use his own nickname "OIL,"
because he is not ashamed of the gospel. His style may have been (be?)
offensive to many of us, but he has listened to us as well, no longer
posting so very many times in a day, etc. I hope we can work to
nourish one another in the gospel, rather than try to shove people out
with name-calling and angst.
(And no, not everyone who uses the phrase "in love" should
automatically be assumed to be our brother OIL.)
Michelle
For those doing "Mary, Mother of our Lord," you may find helpful the
words to a hymn (especially the last verse) as follows:
At the cross, her station keeping, // Stood the mournful mother
weeping, // Close to Jesus to the last. // Through her heart, his
sorrow sharing, // All his bitter anguish bearing, // Now at length
the sword had passed.
Oh, how sad and sore distress-ed // Was that mother highly bless-ed //
Of the sole-begotten one! // Oh, the depth of her affliction // As she
saw the crucifixion // Of her dying, glorious Son.
Who, on Christ’s dear mother gazing, // Pierced by anguish so amazing,
// Born of woman, would not weep? // Who, on Christ’s dear mother
thinking, // Such a cup of sorrow drinking, // Would not share her
sorrows deep?
For his people’s sin chastis-ed, // She beheld her Son despis-ed, //
Scourged, and crowned with thorns entwined; // Saw him then from
judgment taken, // And in death by all forsaken, // Till his spirit he
resigned.
Jesus, may her deep devotion // Stir in me the same emotion, // Source
of love, redeemer true. // Let me thus, fresh ardor gaining // And a
purer love attaining, // Consecrate my life to you.
Michelle
