Scripture Text (NRSV)
Luke 11:1-13
11:1 He was praying in a certain place, and after he had finished,
one of his disciples said to him, "Lord, teach us to pray, as John
taught his disciples."
11:2 He said to them, "When you pray, say: Father, hallowed be your
name. Your kingdom come.
11:3 Give us each day our daily bread.
11:4 And forgive us our sins, for we ourselves forgive everyone
indebted to us. And do not bring us to the time of trial."
11:5 And he said to them, "Suppose one of you has a friend, and you
go to him at midnight and say to him, 'Friend, lend me three loaves of
bread;
11:6 for a friend of mine has arrived, and I have nothing to set
before him.'
11:7 And he answers from within, 'Do not bother me; the door has
already been locked, and my children are with me in bed; I cannot get
up and give you anything.'
11:8 I tell you, even though he will not get up and give him
anything because he is his friend, at least because of his persistence
he will get up and give him whatever he needs.
11:9 "So I say to you, Ask, and it will be given you; search, and
you will find; knock, and the door will be opened for you.
11:10 For everyone who asks receives, and everyone who searches
finds, and for everyone who knocks, the door will be opened.
11:11 Is there anyone among you who, if your child asks for a fish,
will give a snake instead of a fish?
11:12 Or if the child asks for an egg, will give a scorpion?
11:13 If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts
to your children, how much more will the heavenly Father give the Holy
Spirit to those who ask him!"
Comments:
Jesus talks about how we must be persistant and we will recieve. Makes
me think of the exprierence that I had with the candidacy process. I
had to be persistant with my mentors and persistant with the Division
on Ordained Ministry because they would sit on my paperwork. I think
Jesus does call us to be persistant in life because its a way that we
can be tested to make sure we know what we want.
Missouri Preacher Dude
Two weeks ago the Good Samaritan was a generous soul who provided what
a wounded traveler needed for basic survival. It was a lot, but every
bit of it was necessary. Last week, Martha was a generous soul who
provided what a traveler needed to feel welcomed in her home. It was a
lot, and it was probably more than Jesus could eat - an abundance, and
essentially a waste.
This week we have a less-than-generous soul with a needy neighbor who
asks for only the basics in an emergency situation. Three loaves of
bread would probably equal 3 hamburger buns in size. Not a lot, but it
was everything to him at that moment. He could not be a good host
without the food. This was a critical moment for him. And it may have
been a big deal to the grumpy neighbor - it may have been his
breakfast he was asking to give away.
Why would the needy neighbor not mix up some flour and oil and make
his own bread loaves? Could it be that he understood that sometimes he
could not do things on his own, but needed help? And he needed help
enough that he was persistent even when he was not receiving even the
basics from his neighbor? Keep asking, not for fish and wine and
persimmons, but for basic bread, and you will be rewarded.
Jesus tells us what to ask for: an understanding of who God is, the
ability to make it through this day, a solid path to follow and the
ability to ask for forgiveness when we stray from it as well as the
ability to offer others the same forgiveness when they tromp on our
paths.
We can't always do this on our own, we need help. We go ask God to
"give it" to us, but God doesn't work like that. We have to want it
badly enough that we keep asking, keep praying about it, keep looking
for it. If we do indeed want God's involvement, it will not be a
fleeting request, but a long-term, continuous one. And once God knows
we really are interested in his response and are willing to receive
from him, then we will receive on a long-term basis. It's hard work to
live by the things Jesus tells us to ask for.
When I was a kid, I wanted a pony. For about a week. Then I forgot
about it. If my folks had gone out and got me a pony, it would have
been too bad for the pony and for me. I didn't really know what I was
asking for. They knew not to respond to me about it until they were
sure I was serious about the animal. It was a fleeting prayer.
It's Monday, it's my day off, and I'm thinking through the cobwebs.
Blessings to all this week.
KHC
As a pastoral counselor with preaching duties, I like a little free
association and question asking with each text I encounter. This
particular one offers a lot of food for thought, such as...
How has this text been abused, theologically, from the pulpit and the
pew?
How does this illuminate the relationship between Creator and created?
What about people who have asked for fish and felt like they received
snakes?
How have we used this passage to the benefit and detriment of our and
others prayer lives?
Persistence? How does this line up with bending the will of God
through prayer?
As you can see, I am beginning to focus on what prayer means in the
life of the faithful, at least that is the current direction of my
questions. However, one piece that continually works its way back into
my mind is a sense of how or in what manner relationship takes place
between God and each of us indvidiually and communally. These are just
some early week ramblings that I need to view from the outside of my
head...
Grays and Peas, Niebuhrian in VA
I really like the point about the word translated as persistence
really meaning "shamelessness" or "barefacedness." in Rev. Hall's
sermon on this site. Its like approaching the throne boldly. It feels
to me like what is sometimes called transparency. Don't know quite
where to go with this,yet
Max in NC
If we are curious about the act of praying, we would do well to look
at Luke's narrative. In this gospel, more than anywhere else, Jesus
withdrew to pray; he urged others to pray, he encouraged corporate
prayer, he warned against the misuse of prayer, and he TAUGHT prayer.
In today's gospel he teaches THE prayer, the one we now call the
Lord's Prayer.
Jesus taught the prayer in direct response to his disciples' specific
request, "Lord, teach us to pray." In this prayer Jesus virtually
taught his disciples to breathe, for the prayer has become like
respiration. It is the great community prayer in which we ask God to
hear and answer us. As a corporate expression, it is the prayer of the
body of Christ and not only of isolated individuals.
This address to God, Luther said, is an enticement to believe that God
is our Father and we are his children. In this prayer Jesus invited
all disciples into a living relationship with God, in which we gather
all our earthly hopes and desires and bring them to our heavenly
Father. We know that God knows what we know and want, but we pray
anyway. We pray for God's holy name; for God's dominion; for daily
bread; for forgiveness of sins; for deliverance. Without this prayer
we would be left breathless and speechless. We would be petitioners
without the right of petition.
Jesus taught the disciples the implications of prayer. Neighborliness
and persistence, asking and searching, proper response and giving good
gifts: these all derive from prayer. We pray in the world where God
encounters us and we engage one another. Praying, Jesus taught,
involves the Holy Spirit who calls, gathers, and inspires. When the
disciples asked Jesus how to pray, they got much more than they
bargained for. So do we.
Robert Brusic
In Luke's gospel Jesus prays often and urges his disciples to do the
same. Here, he teaches them to pray and encourages them to trust in
God at all times.
The Lord's Prayer is a corporate prayer that we sort of rattle off
without much thought. Would it make any difference if we prayed it
like an individual's prayer, "Forgive me my debts as I forgive my
debtors" and "Lead me not into temptation but deliver me."? How can we
personalize a corportate prayer?
This is my first post, but I have learned much from all of you each
time I come to get inspiration and ideas here. As a lay speaker, my
comments may be somewhat naive or elementary. Please forgive me that.
I preach occassionally, rather than weekly, so sometimes a little
rusty.
In regards to this scripture, the question that I am wrestling with
has to do with the balance of seeking God's will and desire for us, as
opposed to being persistant in asking and praying for what WE want. As
we mature in our relationship with Christ, that gap (hopefully) closes
and is much the same thing. But early in our journey, this seems in
conflict. How do we acheive that balance? Kim in Colorado.
Kim, you hit the nail on the head when you said it was a matter of
maturity. To quote one of my very favorite therapists, Dr. Phil
McGraw, "we want what we want when we want it" when we are not mature
enough to know the value of delayed gratification. But as we do
mature, we come to understand that what we wanted in our immaturity
isn't necessarily what we needed to carry us into our mature years,
something of lifelong (and eternal) value.
Jesus is simply directing us to maturity - teaching us to ask for
those things that are of true value now and in the future. And if we
can't have it now, keep at it until it is ours to claim. Delayed
gratification again.....
Welcome to this board. I hope all the contributions are useful.
KHC
Beginning the process of sorting out who is who in this text.
What happens if I allow the persistent friend be God who needs me to
get out of bed and be part of God's answer to midnight prayers?
hmmmm
Storyteller
KHC, thank you for your comments and confirmation.
So, what I am hearing now, is that even though our request may come
from immaturity, keep at it if it seems of true value to us. God may
not answer right away, and as we grow in Christ our request may
change, fall by the wayside or be something completely different.
Here is something that I may use: We have this electronic Yahtzee game
in our home that we all fiddle with to kill time or whatever. And it
has occurred to me recently that sometimes I'm so focused on getting,
say, '5's', that I don't realize it when I'm handed a 'fullhouse' and
make a mistake and roll the dice. Or sometimes, I'm going for '5's'
and, gosh darn it, I get a Yahtzee! Then I have to keep trying for
'5's'. All along God is blessing me with good rolls, but I'm focused
on what 'I' perceive the want to be, not leaving it in his hands- I
miss out on His answer to my fervent 'gimmee a good roll.'
Does this miss the mark? Or does it make sense?
There is no reason for the reader to assume that Jesus said all these
things on one occasion. To assemble materials into compatible sections
on miracles, controversies, parables, prayer, and other themes or
forms in common in the Gospels. That these sayings originally had
different settings is supported by the fact that Matthew parallels
Luke 11.2-4 at Mt 6.9-13 and Lk 11.9-13 at Mt 7.7-11. Luke's parable
of the friend at midnight (vv. 5-8) is found nowhere else. To the
whole, Luke provides and introduction in two parts: the example of
Jesus and a disciple's request (v. 1). Jesus at prayer is a frequent
and very important image in this Gospel: at baptism (3.21), before
choosing the Twelve (6.12), before the first prophecy of his passion
(9.18), and at his transfiguration (9.28), among other occasions.
Jesus' prayer life has now prompted a request from a disciple. Perhaps
John had given to his disciples a form of prayer that was an
identifying mark of the group. We know his disciples fasted and prayed
(5.33). It was not unusual for rabbis to teach specific prayers.
Notice that the text treats prayer as a learned experience, not simply
as a release of feelings. Discipline is clearly implied.
The clear breaks in the passage yield three distinct units: verses
2-4, 5-8, and 9-13. Luke's form of the Lord's Prayer (vv. 2-4) is
briefer than the more familiar liturgically extended version in Mt
6.9-13. It consist of two brief petitions of praise and three
petitions for those praying. The prayer is that of a community (us,
we), not of a private individual, and the community's primary desire
is for the coming of God's kingdom, God's reign. It is therefore an
eschatological prayer, a quality underlined by the shore phrases such
as "Thy kingdom come." Verse 3 contains an obscure word that may mean
bread "for today" or "for tomorrow." It is is properly "bread for
tomorrow," then the petition probably refers to bread from heaven at
the final coming of the kingdom. However, the present tense of "give
us," meaning "continue or keep on giving to us," coupled with the
phrase "day by day" argue in favor of a petition for provision of
daily food. After all, disciples go on missionary tours with no extra
rations (10.4-7) and depend on the hospitality of others. That the
petitioner asks God to forgive sins as we forgive everyone their debts
to us may possibly reflect Luke's concern that possessions not hinder
community fellowship (6.30; Acts 4.32; 5.1-11). The final petition is
probably eschatological: do not lead us into trial, that is, the final
thrashing about and agony of evil before the end.
The parable of the friend at midnight (vv. 5-7; v. 8 is commentary) is
awkward and difficult for several reasons. It is one long question
with many clauses joined with conjunctions in Semitic fashion. In
addition, the opening "Which of you?" asks the reader to identify with
someone going at midnight to ask a friend for bread, but the attention
shifts totally to the friend in bed who finally gets up. And finally,
parables beginning with the questions, "Which one of you?" as a
general rule have as the expected answer, "No one." Because of these
unusual features, one suspects that this parable, maybe in a more
extended form, once had a context dealing with the end time, as does
Matthew's parable of the bridegroom coming at midnight (Mt 25.1-13).
In this present setting, however, the message is about prayer. But
that message does not lie in comparing God to a friend who responds
only under pressure. Rather, the point is that if our friends answer
importunate (shameless, NEB) appeals, how much more will God who
desires to give us the kingdom (12.32).
The concluding unit (vv. 9-13) extends further the reasoning from
lesser to greater, or "how much more" will God respond to you. The
analogy moves from friends to parents: if parents give good gifts, how
much more so will God. Luke has egg and scorpion instead of Matthew's
loaf and stone (Mt 7.9) but with no difference in meaning. Prayer is
to be continual asking, seeking, knocking (present imperatives), but
even so, this persistance is within a parent-child relationship which
assures good gifts. In Luke, it is the Holy Spirit (Matthew has "good
things") which is the gift of God. The gift of the Holy Spirit is
central in Luke for understanding both Jesus (3.21) and the church
(24.49; Acts 1.4, 5, 8; 2.38). The Holy Spirit leads and empowers
Jesus, and when the Holy Spirit comes to Jesus' followers (Acts 1.8)
they will be led and empowered to continue what Jesus began to do and
to teach before he was received up. Without the Holy Spirit there was
not, there is not, a church.
Fred B. Craddock
That Craddock commentary really really irked me. Dunno why because I
consider myself a Craddockian.
Could be the copier that has decided to cough up the paper and ink.
Could be its the whole thing about prayer being getting God to
respond. That reaaally really bothers me.
For me (and I dont have the defination nailed pretty yet), prayer is
about getting into a relationship with God. Prayer is getting in tune
with God. Its not about me getting God to respond. Prayer is not
dialling 911 so God can send the help squad to my call and beckoning.
God responds always. Whether I pray or not.
Ooops. too many words! Hope the word count police is on vacation.
Trekkie
Trekkie, ask and you shall receive, knock and the door shall be opened
to you, seek and you shall find. Another place the Scriptures tell us
that we receive not because we ask not. While prayer is not all about
supplication and petition, that is certainly a part of it. ACTS -
Adoration, Confession, Thanksgiving, Supplication/Petition. In this
text, we seem to be looking at the supplication/petition portion of
prayer.
Kim, sometimes no answer at all is as clear as a direct "No" or a "Not
Yet". The main promise God makes is that he is there, that he knows
our hearts. As we grow in faith, the object of our prayers switches.
Less about what I want and more about what somebody else needs. Less
about material wants and more from the core. Less about being right
and more about keeping the faith in tough times. I don't have mature
Christians coming to complain about who did what to them, but about
how to mend the rift and to ask me to pray with them for the person
who hurt them (even mature Christians sometimes need prayer guidance).
Immature Christians of every age are still locked into the "me mode"
and want me to side with them in their harrumphing or tell them what
they want to hear. When I don't buy into that request, they accuse me
of not caring about their needs. The truth is, I do, but on an
entirely different level than they're looking for.
OK. enough from me. I'll go do something else now.
KHC
Sometimes we walk away too soon from a prayer we make to God. In a day
and age of immediate communication, it is difficult to be very patient
when the answer to prayer is long in the making. In God's great
wisdom, God makes us wait -- perhaps to encourage our persistence in
prayer and trust, or for the "open moment" to receive God's answer.
Either way, we don't want to hang up the phone too soon. -- Dr.
Charles Gilmore
Anyone else preaching on St. James the Elder? Mark 10:35-45
LF
I love the word "suppose" in this text. It makes me think of the word
"imagine"... Imagine with me for a moment the writer seems to be
saying. Then I think- imagine what the world would be like if we lived
the Lord's Prayer. Imagine what the world would be like if we did ask,
seek, and knock- and actually believe! Imagine.... Imagining in NC
Imagine
Imagine there's no Heaven it's easy if you try No Hell below us Above
us only sky Imagine all the people Living for today.
Imagine there's no countries It isn't hard to do Nothing to kill or
die for And no religion too Imagine all the people Living life in
peace.
Imagine no possessions I wonder if you can No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man Imagine all the people Sharing all the world.
You may say I'm a dreamer But I'm not the only one I hope someday
you'll join us And the world will be as one
John Lennon
LF:
Yes.
Tom in Ontario
Does Yoko get a royalty for using John's song here?
In 951 … not BC or AD but chapter and verse … Jesus declared time us
up for him and was now on his last trip to Jerusalem where he would be
killed. So we are traveling with dead man walking. The big question is
what keeps him walking. And in chapter eleven we find the secret:
prayer.
The disciples want to be taught how to do it. Which is of course
somewhat surprising to wonder whether they have NOT been praying all
this while! Or perhaps they have been praying in the traditional
manner. Anyhow, they want Jesus to teach them to pray. John’s set the
precedence they say.
So Jesus teaches them to pray a prayer that hallows God’s name, yearns
for God’s kingdom, asks for daily sustenance, begs forgiveness, begs
off time of trial.
Jesus commentary on this is a parable of a friend whose friend arrive
in the middle of the night and he seeks help from another friend in
the middle of the night. Kinda like “my problemo your problemo”
Further commentary on prayer is a commonsense advice: ask, search,
knock and one will be given, find and have the door opened.
No surprise here. Nothing unusual. The only unusual piece is the
guarantee for everyone to get on asking, find on searching and having
the door thrown open on ringing the doorbell. That is a tall order of
a promise. EVERYONE?
Yep! Sounds like it is Everyone! And more so, God does not do trick or
treat. There will be surprise of wriggly things that turn out to be
snakes not fish and no scorpions curled up into egg shapes either.
Even bad parents do that to their children.
And then what one gets on asking is the HOLY SPIRIT! Huh?????? Yikes!
Sounds that all along we were supposed to ask, search and knock for
the Holy Spirit and we will get our needs and MUCH MORE!
Storyteller, pray can weave this info into some of your wise, clear
thoughts????
Trekkie
God can't say "Yes" if we don't ask.
~~PC in GA
Sorry PC in GA but find that theology very problematic. It would
probably be more useful to hear "We cant participate in God's "Yes" if
we don't ask."
Trekkie (i will now shut up before I become OIL2!)
I am a lay minister and rarely preach, but I use sermon preparation as
one means of studying the Bible. If I may beg your indulgence, the
following thoughts came to me as I looked at the lesson in Luke: Jesus
taught His already well-taught Disciples how to pray. The assumption
is that they didn’t know how to pray, but it COULD be that they didn’t
know how to teach OTHERS to pray. Since church is mainly for us
sinners and not for those who can throw stones without guilt,
corporate prayer has a definite place. The only problem that I’ve seen
is that recitation can obscure the meaning over time…like with the
Pledge of Allegiance…and with the Lord’s Prayer…so I looked at
it…again…and will more times in my life…maybe with different thoughts
next time.
Our Father…. Not My father (as we know it was) or your father(since he
was teaching others) but OUR father – shared by all brothers and
sisters in Christ. Who art in Heaven (establishing a commonality of
place for God) Hallowed be thy name (you shall love the Lord your God
with all your heart…) Thy kingdom come, thy will be done (God is on
the throne and it is His will that must take precedence over every
part of our lives – not what we want, but He wants for us) On earth as
it is in Heaven (we are not to wait until we are in an “appropriate”
place to bow to our Lord…every knee shall bow and every tongue confess
- - NOW) Give us this day our daily bread (by His grace, our needs –
not our wants - are satisfied. We shouldn’t be anxious about what is
to come. And forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who
trespass against us (how many times should I forgive those who sin
against me, seven? No, seventy times seven. Lead us not into
temptation (today more than ever before are we faced with uninvited
barrages of temptation from TV, newspapers, and the internet – but,
thank God, not on my radio – 104.1 the fish) But deliver us from evil
(it’s out there, it is not passive, and we cannot fight it alone)
Blessings, S†eve (Oregon)
Sorry Trekkie, I am preaching from the Hosea text. Its a more
thrilling story.
Storyteller
Trekkie,
My non-Calvinist understanding is that God gives to those who ask.
Those who do not ask, do not get it forced on them.
~~PC in GA (Pruning my T.U.L.I.P.s)
Storyteller - the way I feel today (more on that when I finish reading
the posts), woe to the one who tries to get me out of bed!
:-)
Sally in GA
As a young religion major in college, I kept asking myself, why does
God NEED our prayers?? If God knows all, then why would I need to
pray? The only answer I came to, was that it was our will being in
line with God's will that he needed.
With my congregation we have been praying for some things with
persistence. I pray that we will not give up that we will continue to
pray. If we continue to pray, if what we are asking for is not God's
will, we will be listening to God through the process of prayer and
that will allow us to be formed and shaped to what God really does
want to happen, and because we are praying we will be aware, and our
desires slowly come to a place where they are God's desires. I often
use a hand picture of one hand below, and one hand above slowly coming
together to match one path, one desire. If it is a prayer God does
want to "grant", we learn through prayer how to be the agents to make
it happen.
I dunno, just my thoughts.
KP
OK - I'm going to try to make it as brief as possible (Officer Word
Count, I fear, lurketh) and still communicate my thoughts on this
pericope.
First off, Trekkie, I can't agree with you, because Scripture is
filled with examples of people petitioning God, and God changing God's
mind - but not in the "be careful what you pray for" way, for God
won't give us scorpions or snakes (snake-handling aside), but cares
for us as his children (thus the petition "Father"). The next thought
follows ...
Because of our recent outreach and evangelism efforts, and a "neighbor
Sunday," I've been thinking about the last several pericopes in terms
of "neighbor" (Good Samaritan) and "friend" (Jesus as Martha and
Mary's friend). Today, Jesus is giving us not just a prayer to pray,
but a theology of prayer. We are the friends who petition God and God
hears because of our relationship with him. More importantly, God
responds because of his relationship with us. We can approach boldly
not because we've earned the right to do so, but because we recognize
so profoundly and familiarly that God will respond. It's not about the
how's and the why's of prayer, as much as it is in the "who's" - who
we are and who God is and who we are to each other.
Just as with Mary and Martha it wasn't so much about busy-ness or
idleness, but about tending a relationship with a friend, that is what
prayer is. We can approach God boldly because we know who God is, and
still choose to do so on bowed knees because we know who we are.
Finally, I put some real-life examples of prayer on the "discussion
page" so in case anyone wants some inspiring sermon illustrations,
they'll be there under "VBS and the Power of Prayer."
Sally in GA
Greetings all -- It has been a LONG time since I was reading thru this
site early enough in the week to offer a post. But thanks to you all
for all of the Saturdays I read thru your thoughts and posts as I was
clarifying my message.
I'm struggling with the "bigness" of this passage. Having done a
series in my last church about the Lord's Prayer (that lasted 6 weeks
I think)... I'm having a hard time trying to figure out if I really
want to preach on all 13 of these verses together. What are some
rationales for keeping this whole section linked?
My current thought is to start after the Lord's Prayer section (is
that verse 5, I think?) and talk more about the theological
ramifications and what we are being taught, shown, invited into. ??? I
too try to steer very clear around issues of "asking" and expecting
God to do what we want. What does that say about or to the young girl,
my friend, who has been in a wheelchair all of her life and has been
told repeatedly by some, that if she had enough faith, or if she asked
in faith, she could get up and walk??? What thoughts do you guys have?
Sorry if this is too long! Thanks for your help and blessings
throughout this week. May God speak to each of us.
Shalom, RevAmy
"Teach us to pray" was the request from the Disciples. (They must have
been impressed with Jesus' prayer life and so they want a piece of it.
Oh, I wish that people even take notice that I have a prayer life!)
So Jesus went on and teach them:
1) The content of what to pray. v.2-4
2) The attitude of persistency when we pray, especially when we pray
for someone else. v.5-8 (Note that the person was asking for his
friend, not himself. I guess it might be easier to keep asking for
ourselves, or it might be easier to learn to live with the
circumstance that we find ourselves in)
3) But we should not only be persistent, but we should TRUST that the
Giver love us, He's our Father, not Santa Clause. (I think this
explained why persistency some times required here. If I was dressing
up as Santa Clause and some kids asked for candy in the bag, I will
just give it. But if my son came to me and ask for candy, I may have
think twice to see if it's the best thing for him or not at that time.
God is our Father, and therefore He concern about what we are getting)
Now back to my own life, I think I know the "what" of prayer pretty
well, but I don't know much about the "how", especially the
persistence attitude, especially for someone else.
Lord God, you have called us to the priesthood, not to only preach but
also to pray for our people. Forgive us, forgive me for not persistent
before your throne on their behalf. Teach us to pray, oh Lord; teach
us to hang in there to move the your hand, so we could see our friends
well fed by you in the middle of the night. Help me to be a person who
stand-in-the-gap, a pastor and not just a preacher.
Coho, Midway City.
I was always disturbed by the thought of prayer. We get only if we ask
and if we ask in the right way. So if we don't get, does that mean
that we didn't ask right? It especially disturbed me during CPE.
Praying didn't really seemed to matter. A family would pray
desperately and thier child would still die.
So I looked around for some kind of explaination of prayer and the
best thing I found was in a Paul Tillich sermon -- I think on Romans
8.
I'm paraphrasing from memory, but he said that prayer was a sign of
God's will being put into our hearts. The spirit guides us in what we
say and consequently in what we do. When we pray for a person it is a
sign of the Spirit's love in our heart. And also, when we say
something in prayer, we could be moved to do something. When we ask
God to feed the hungry or for peace, we might be moved to help in
that. When we pray that God's will be done, we might be moved to help
with that too. Whatever it is, God puts prayer in us. Does it relate?
We'll see. jw in tx
Of course there are many times we don't get what we pray for. Of
course there are people who think that if something bad happens anyway
it was because they did not have enough faith or prayed incorrectly.
That is because we don't really know what prayer is. It is not a list
of demands. It is not all about me or my ideas. Prayer is not a
mechanical tool that can be put to use for a certain outcome. It is a
conversation between hearts.
Someone once said that life is like a tapestry. We see the underside
with all its knots and strings pulled at odd angles. But God sees the
upper side with the complete unsullied picture. He knows exactly where
things need to go, in what order and in what colors. He created the
masterpiece and knows what belongs in it and what does not. Our prayer
requests may or may not fit in. But our conversations with God always
have a place.
Well, once again we seek to find common purpose in the readings from
Hosea and Luke. Hosea's life and prophecy was a living out of God's
will and his love for Gomer was the holy love of a God who prays that
we forgive as we have been forgiven.
I think we will miss something if we simply focus on the (form) Lord's
Prayer without seeing how this prayer is God's story in the world,
lived out in Hosea and Jesus.
This is as far as my thoughts have taken me. I am not sure what to do
with it all.
tom in ga
I remember hearing Rosemary Radford Ruether saying (my paraphrase
follows) that God works in two ways in creation: first, through the
laws of nature that God designed; secondly, and rarely, through
miracles that seem to break the laws of the first.
God designed bodies that have certain needs - for air, water, food,
etc. - and that respond to certain circumstances in predictable ways.
When deprived of air, when faced with too much random useless cell
growth from cancer, etc. bodies die. BUT - and this is the big,
critical moment - SOMETIMES God intervenes, and the body miraculously
is enabled to go on living. This is exceptional and rare, and it is
important to remember that mostly everything runs according to #1
(laws of nature). But the possibility of God functioning according to
#2 (miracle) means that prayer for intervention is always appropriate.
Just don't expect it every time.
LF
Last week I preached about being focused and centered and use the Tour
de France and Postal team as an example. So this week I am focusing on
the help we can find in the structure of Lord's prayer to keep us
centered on God. That is unless you all change my direction.
I am using many versions of the Lord's prayer. Nancy-Wi
What comes to mind in all of this is that we are always asking... when
do we listen... communication is a two way street. If we can claim
spiritual connection through prayer then we better listen too. I am
not sure that making this an I prayer is good. We too often are
focused on I and not us. How can we make a difference, maybe God is
calling us... The Prayer of Jabez is very I orientated. I I I all for
me. Just some scattered thoughts today. Nancy-Wi
great stuff so far everyone!!!
3 things:
1. the response to prayer is always God's presence. (or perhaps the
response to prayer is that we realize that God is indeed present with
us.)
2. i always liked what luther said about the 2nd commandment... if we
aren't supposed to take the name of the Lord in vain then we are
suppose to use the name of God in all those "right ways:" in prayer,
thanksgiving, praise, etc...
and 3. the thing that always strikes me about the L'sP is how fast
people always say it in worship. this is especially true when i've
been in worship with lots of other clergy. we rush through it so
quickly. robert brusic mentioned how jesus taught people how to
breathe. (excellent!)
a woman i know who teaches children in the church encourages people to
slow down when they recite the L's P so that young people and people
young in the faith can learn it.
jesus taught us this beautiful prayer, but we've become so adept at
saying it that we've forgotten how to PRAY it. i think this will be my
focus this sunday.
God's peace, christine at the shore
while driving overnight from a family emergency..i listened to a
teacher breakdown the Pledge of Allegiance so his kids understood what
they were saying. I intend to do the same thing with the all too
familiar phrases of the LP. Pastor Keg
Nancy-WI
I am reminded of the call of Samuel in 1 Samuel and his response,
"Speak Lord, your servant listens" I think there maybe too much
chatter going on and not enough listening. Another scripture I use
during prayer time is "Be still and know that I am God." Early
reflections Nancy HB
I am focusing on the Parable of the Knock at Midnight, as Martin
Luther King called it. I am fascinated by the "midnight" timing, and
am exploring the midnight asepct of our lives, our urgency, our
desperate pleas to God. I am also fascinated by the fact that some
commentaries say that the homeowner owed just as much a duty of
hospitality to the midnight visior, as the host caught without bread.
We are to respond to the needs of others out of grace and love, as God
does us, not as a grumpy homeowner who gives bread to stop the
knocking at his door. Our children and others in our sphere need to
learn what is important to us--that the care of others is more
important than our creature comforts. In doing this, we do not love
them less--we love them more. God doesn't need our persistence to give
us good, great, and wonderful things, including the ultimate gift, the
Holy Spirit. His nature is as far removed from the cranky homeowner as
would most Jews of that time, who would have gladly given the bread,
not because of shutting the neighbor up, but of honoring the visitor
with hospitality. Any thoughts on this? Godspeed to all of you as you
prepare and preach the Word on Sunday. Jesse in North Carolina.
Jesse of NC,
I love the idea of probing the knock at midnight. When we think about
those times when we are up in the wee hours with a concern and need of
assistance. When we think about the difficulty of getting a phone call
at midnight, etc.
There is a lot to probe there!
Susan in Wa.
Not that I am much of a country music fan, but I was thinking about
the Garth Brooks song "Thank God for Unanswered Prayer" that basically
talks about how he realized years down the line, how grateful he was
that he ended up with his wife, and not the woman he saw at a
homecoming football game, that he had a crush on and prayed for a
relationship with. My grammar is horrible, but you get the point.
Susan in Wa.
It seems to me that the Good Samaritan story was saying that we have
answered prayer when we listen and respond with God's heart/compassion
towards the people around us. With Mary and Martha, we see prayer as
sitting at Jesus' feet and hearing his word.(Listening, and being vs.
distracted by our doing), and now we are getting from the the
Lords'Prayer, a lesson on how to pray based on our knowing God's
heart. Early thoughts, and I am not sure where I am going with this.
Susan in Wa.
It was the common practice of some one aspiring to the monastic life
to come to the abbey and knock, remaining at the door for almost two
weeks, no matter the weather, before the openned and he was granted
entrance. If this is not shameless persistence, then I don't know what
is ... it is the very ground of faithfulness.
tom in ga
The standing at the door and knocking reminds me of the painting of
Jesus knocking on a door, waiting for us to answer it. He keeps
knocking and keeps knocking and keeps knocking until somebody opens
the door to him. Prayer is one way to open the door, because it avails
us to what Jesus has to offer and what God wants us to know.
a story about the L'sP:
a woman in my congregation had a series of strokes after painful
surgery. it was an awful time for her and her family. the strokes
affected her speach so that she could only say "I". on a visit to her
home i took her and her husband communion. bill and i went through the
confession and some prayers together as we sat around her. i said the
words of institution then invited them to join me in saying the L'sP.
and this woman who could only get a one syllable word out of her mouth
said every word of that prayer. it was slow and deliberate and bill
and i had trouble saying it with her through the tears in our eyes.
there is something about these words of jesus; this prayer that he
taught us.
i think about paul telling us that when we don't know what to pray the
Spirit interceeds for us with sighs too deep for words. this is a
prayer of sighs too deep for words.
i think i'm a bit intimidated when it comes to preaching on it. i
wonder what would happen if i just invited the congregation to
meditate on it. to sigh those words?
what do you all think?
God's peace, christine at the shore
christine, it wouldn't fly in this church but if prayer is time to
communicate with the divine it may be a useful experience with your
congregation. The problem is, they may very well need to be taught to
meditate on prayer in the same manner the disciples needed to be
taught to pray. To just do it may be overwhelming or intimidating, and
you might have people thinking about everything but the L'sP.
They would need direction from you. Let us meditate on the first line
"Our Father". Now let us meditate on "who art in Heaven." Piece by
piece, line by line, rather than all in one big chunk to contemplate
all at once. They would most likely lose focus pretty fast.
I think I'm going to take the suggestion offered earlier and have them
say it very slowly, pausing between phrases. If they are not allowed
to just rattle it off, they might think about what they are saying -
or at the very least what comes next!
christine at the shore ...
I like your story of the woman with the stroke. It reminds me of the
worship I lead with the residents of a nearby nursing home. I make
absolutely sure to include the Lord's Prayer and VERY familiar songs,
as the majority of the worshipers are quite senile or have
Alzheimer's. They can't follow a sermon to save their necks, but they
pipe up and join in when I begin ... "Our Father ..." Some things
memorized and often said by rote are still in their minds that
otherwise appear "gone." We don't know if they can grasp the meaning
of what they're saying, but we know that the familiarity of the prayer
is a spark from the recesses of their minds.
I've learned that the prayer is no less "prayed" by rote than by
"meaning it." Though, I agree that we need to re-visit the words in
depth from time to time (same with the Apostles' Creed).
Sally in GA
i thought i would share this with you all. you are welcome to use it,
just please let me know if you do.
God's peace, christine at the shore
A Guided Meditation on the Lord’s Prayer
L As children go to their caring Father assured that he will listen to
them, let us pray. C Our Father in heaven. Silence for meditation.
L Let us pray that God’s name become holy in and among us. C Hallowed
be your name. Silence for meditation.
L Let us pray for God’s Holy Spirit that the kingdom come to us. C
Your kingdom come. Silence for meditation.
L Let us pray that God’s will would come into our hearts. C Your will
be done, on earth as in heaven. Silence for meditation.
L Let us pray for God to feed all who are hungry. C Give us today our
daily bread. Silence for meditation.
L Let us pray that God views us through eyes of grace and healing. C
Forgive us our sins as we forgive those who sin against us Silence for
meditation.
L Let us pray for God to lead us down right paths. C Save us from the
time of trial. Silence for meditation.
L Let us pray that God keep us always in safety. C And deliver us from
evil. Silence for meditation.
L Let us pray for God to always find our prayers acceptable in his
hearing. C For the kingdom, the power, and the glory are yours, now
and forever. Silence for meditation.
L Let us place our trust in God and say… C Amen.
Our Lutheran first lesson this week is Genesis 18 which is where
Abraham keeps bargaining with the LORD to save Sodom and Gomorrah.
Abraham is persistent and keeps asking God to save the place and God
gives in and lowers the number of righteous people required to save
it. Abraham changed God's plan every time he asked.
Someone pointed out to me that the door on which Jesus is knocking (in
the painting mentioned earlier) has no outside handle...it must be
opened from the inside. How ingenious.
The childrens' sermon suggestion (on this DPS site)offers up the idea
of using American Sign Language to sign the prayer this week. There
are numerous links on Google to find it for those interested.
~~PC in GA (still tearing up after the stroke story)
PC in GA, after going to look at that picture of Christ at the Door
again, the place where the doorknob or latch would be is blocked by
Jesus' body. The ornate hinges are visible, opener is blocked. So we
don't know if that was the intention. But I still like the image of us
having to open the door.
I'm getting to work on my sermon late in the week, but have studied a
bit. One of the things that struck me was the phrase "forgive us our
sins, for we ourselves forgive everyone indebted to us."(NRSV)So often
in whatever our tradition might be, we use parallel words in this
phrase ie, debts/debtors; tresspasses/trespass against us, etc. But
the Greek word does translate more closely as sin in the first phrase.
. .but the second phrase translates closely to "as we forgive everyone
owing us" or "as we forgive the debts owed us." This seems to be
interesting to ponder. We don't always think of those who owe us as
having sinned against us. Does being owed something keep us from God?
Just pondering. stc
Interesting take, the sins vs. owing us idea. My Greek Interlinear
with literal English translation indicates it actually says "forgive
us our sins FOR INDEED (our)selves we forgive everyone owing to us."
That is considerably different spin on that phrase than "forgive us
our sins AS WE forgive those who owe us." The Interlinear translation
turns it into a "well OF COURSE we forgive others!" while the
traditional is often taken as an invitation to God to forgive us if
and when we forgive others, to expect nothing more than we are willing
to give.
I have a vague memory from seminary about the word "daily" the phrase
"our daily bread". I remember that they (who ever "they" are) don't
really know for sure what the greek word means. It is not a familiar
word and it is not used anywhere else in the NT (it's a Hapex leGamana.)
So they just guessed that it means "daily bread" or "bread for
tomorrow". My professor said that it could mean "cosmic" or
"delicious" or any number of things. I'm reminicing . . . jw in tx
To all who see the connection between the persistent knocking and the
picture of Jesus knocking on a door: Wasn't that an example of
Eisegesis instead of Exegesis?
The Exegetical Police.
Jesse in North Carolina and others, I too was very inspired by MLK's A
Knock at Midnight sermon. Still very timely and inspirational today.
If you're interested in checking it out you can click on the link
here. Thanks for all the ideas so far this week. BB in IL
Exegesis police, go back and read the posts. One subject is
persistence in prayer. One person gave an example of persistence by
sharing about monestary applicants standing for a long time at the
door waiting to be let in. Another person mentioned that reminded him
or her about that picture of Jesus knocking. That's all it was. An
illustration, not an exegetical exercise.
I cannot say OUR, if my religion has no room for others and their
needs. I cannot say FATHER, if I do not demonstrate this relationship
in my daily living. I cannot say WHO ARE IN HEAVEN, if all my interest
and pursuits are in earthly things. I cannot say HALLOWED BE THY NAME,
if I, who am called by His name, am not holy. I cannot say, THY
KINGDOM COME, if I am unwilling to give up my own sovereignty and
accept the righteous reign of God. I cannot say THY WILL BE DONE, if I
am unwilling or resentful of having it in my life. I cannot say ON
EARTH AS IT IS IN HEAVEN, unless I am truly ready to give myself to
His service here and now. I cannot say GIVE US THIS DAY OUR DAILY
BREAD, without expending honest effort for it or by ignoring the
genuine needs of my fellow man. I cannot say FORGIVE US OUR TRESPASSES
AS WE FORGIVE THOSE WHO TRESPASS AGAINST US, if I continue to harbor a
grudge against anyone. I cannot say LEAD US NOT INTO TEMPTATION, if I
deliberately choose to remain in a situation where I am likely to be
tempted. I cannot say DELIVER US FROM EVIL, if I am not prepared to
fight in the spiritual realm with the weapon of Word and prayer. I
cannot say THINE IS THE KINGDOM, if I do not give the King the
disciplined obedience of a loyal subject. I cannot say THINE IS THE
POWER, if I fear what my neighbors or friends may say or do. I cannot
say THINE IS THE GLORY, if I am seeking my own glory and recognition
first. I cannot say FOREVER, if I am too anxious about each day's
affairs. I cannot say AMEN, unless I honestly say, "Cost what it may,
this is my prayer.
The above is not an original peace; I've had it in my files for years.
I know it might seem a little heavy handed (read "LAW"), but with
appropriate Gospel balance, it offers some real serious food for
thought. As long as the Gospel predominates, and we acknowledge our
inability to do ANYthing outside of God's grace, and we display His
love and mercy for our listeners, I think it's OK to rattle cages once
in a while. But always, as St. Paul reminds us, "speaking the truth in
love."
PD in CA
Two things; there is a little poem (wish I had it right now) that
points ou that you cannot pray the Lord's prayer and ever once say "I"
And on persistence- have any of you ever heard that you had to try to
gain admittance to the early church three times before they would let
you become a part of it. Don't remember where I heard this (I turned
fifty last August and the memory really starts to go after that)but it
stuck with me
revgilmer in Texarkana
Thanks PD in CA that is exactly what I was looking for God Bless
Pastor Keg
An unsigned poster writes, "The Lord's Prayer is a corporate prayer
that we sort of rattle off without much thought. Would it make any
difference if we prayed it like an individual's prayer, "Forgive me my
debts as I forgive my debtors" and "Lead me not into temptation but
deliver me."? How can we personalize a corportate prayer?"
Don't personalize it! Corporate prayer is one of the necessary
elements of a Christian prayer life. I don't think it would make this
prayer any more personal to me to pray it with "I" & "me" as it does
to pray it in the form in which it is given to us. I think the Lord's
prayer has the power to help knit us together as the body of Christ.
It reminds us that we do nothing as Christians in isolation - not even
when we engage in personal prayer (which IS also a necessary part of
our prayer life). Personal prayer is (or should be), a time when we
lift up not only, nor even mainly, our own needs & desires, but the
needs of sisters& brothers in Christ, the needs of the world, the
NEEDY of the world, etc. The Lord's prayer literally does teach us how
to pray - addressiong God intimately, glorifying & praising God,
making our requests in God's will & not ours, as well as requests &
intercessions. I think the Lord's prayer, as much as any creed we
recite, maybe nearly as much as any sacrament we partake of, gives us
our Christian identity. This is how Christians pray. This is who we
are. It's quite appropriate to pray it with its corporate language,
even when we opray it alone. Remember, there are about a billion of us
humans who ID ourselves as Christians. You can bet that whenever you
pray this prayer, there are many brothers& sisters around this planet
who are praying it with you!! Ken in WV
Hello all, have you noticed a connection between the three main
sections of the Luke lection: Jesus teaches his disciples to pray
"give us each day our DAILY BREAD."
We then hear a parable of a friend KNOCKING on a friends door ASKING
for BREAD.
Finally, we hear: ASK and receive, seek and find, KNOCK and the door
will be opened to you.
Newbee from Okee
Ken in WV, on the other hand, to pray the Lord's Prayer as an
individual prayer might make us see that we have some burden of
responsibility as solo people. To ask that I forgive others packs a
stronger wallop than asking that we all forgive others. I can hide out
in the crowd of all the we's out there and cull no personalized
message of my own need to pray for my own hard Christian acts of
forgiveness and grace.
I see your point very well, and I respect it as more than valid. But
the other side makes sense to me as well.
After all, as they say, the way to world peace is for each person to
be gracious to the people in their own house first, then the next door
neighbors, and on into the world. It may work the same with prayers
for Kingdomly things. Start with yourself, then work outwards.
The Hosea passage will be used to focus attention on the Pater
Nostrum. The Lord's Prayer is more than a series of petitions, it is
way of life filled with dependency on God and humility to accept his
will and a new way of relating with people. It is the guiding
principle of Hosea's relationship with Gomer, and Yahweh's covenant
with Israel. The Lord's Prayer guides us, as well, as we begin to see
the sacred in the midst of the secular, when we begin to interpret all
that happens to us as shaped by our life in the womb of God. Our
persistance, our haggling, our determination to stay on the wild bull
which we call life is the nature of this prayer, knowing that God will
not only answer our prayer but draw us more deeply into the glory and
power of his kingdom. May we not loose sight of our daily lives as we
ponder the meaning of our Lord's Prayer - for here is the mystery of
all life.
tom in ga
This pericope is too involved to try to address every aspect of it
with integrety and faithfulness. I think I am going to develop the
theme of the outrageousness of the subversive idea of "extravegant
hospitality" in an individualistic culture that stresses personal
fulfilment by getting the best for yoursef because "you're worth it."
The power of the Lord's Prayer is its corporate nature. As Christians
awash in a mostly "me and mine first - you and yours if there's
anything left over, an only if I think you deserve it" society, we
often forget the necessity of a radical sense of community. For
instance, what would it be like if we gave of ourselves according to
the needs of others first, and the cost to ourselves last?
If we were the only ones to do this in our society, we might be labled
"suckers." If we all responded in this way, we might be labled
"Christians."
Extravegant hospitality was an important part of survival for the
peasant class in Jesus' time. They had to stick together and support
one another because of the ruling class' propensity toward exploiting
the underclass for their own gain.
God's extravegant hospitality toward us (giving us our daily bread
even when we don't deserve it - which is always)is meant to be not
only a tangible sign of God's love for us, but also an example of how
we should treat one another.
For me, the theme of "extravegant hospitality," hospitality that is so
sacrificial that it runs smack in the face of our current "me first"
society, is the ultimate example of God's love for us. To me, that is
what ties the three parts of this pericope together so importantly.
Chris in Limbo
