6:56 Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood abide in me, and I in
them.
6:57 Just as the living Father sent me, and I live because of the
Father, so whoever eats me will live because of me.
6:58 This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like that
which your ancestors ate, and they died. But the one who eats this
bread will live forever."
6:59 He said these things while he was teaching in the synagogue at
Capernaum.
6:60 When many of his disciples heard it, they said, "This teaching
is difficult; who can accept it?"
6:61 But Jesus, being aware that his disciples were complaining
about it, said to them, "Does this offend you?
6:62 Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where
he was before?
6:63 It is the spirit that gives life; the flesh is useless. The
words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.
6:64 But among you there are some who do not believe." For Jesus
knew from the first who were the ones that did not believe, and who
was the one that would betray him.
6:65 And he said, "For this reason I have told you that no one can
come to me unless it is granted by the Father."
6:66 Because of this many of his disciples turned back and no longer
went about with him.
6:67 So Jesus asked the twelve, "Do you also wish to go away?"
6:68 Simon Peter answered him, "Lord, to whom can we go? You have
the words of eternal life.
6:69 We have come to believe and know that you are the Holy One of
God."
Comments:
Anyways, this is the Gospel discussion page - Jesus says the flesh
is useless - but says those who eat HIS flesh will abide in him and
he in them.
v. 66 - I'm not sure I understand WHICH reason many of his disciples
turned away. Because of the flesh and blood issue, or because of no
one being able to come to him except by the father? and why would it
scare them off?
Sally in GA
We sometimes refer to employment as "Bringing Home the Bread." Since
our employment in the kingdom has nothing to do with bringing home
the "Bread" (Jesus does that for us), we are invited merely to
receive with joy the bread of heaven come down for us. We are not
celebrating Holy Communion on this Sunday in the church I serve, yet
this text invites us to think of that sacrament and partake of the
mystical bread of the world. TN Mack
They have no where to go! Is it not the same today. We have no where
to go but to the Holy One of God today, it could be that not much
has changed. .
Thanks for the Kings Bread tale, and the anaology of the supermarket
sampler. They both were effective stories. Nancy-Wi
Dear Brothers and Sisters,
Since I grew up, I gave up fast food places for better fare. But
since I have become a parent I am forced on occasion to frequent
McDonalds for the literal and not proverbial happy meal. Both
MikkyD's and others profess to have a multitude of choices on the
menu and some slogan to the effect "have it your way" (Burger King).
McD's touts billions served.
God only has one choice of salvation; bread/flesh to eat and blood
to drink of Jesus. It only comes one way and quite frankly it is
offensive to many. What do you brothers and sisters think this has
to say about pluralism and inclusiveness? What would the Pagan say
that heard this from the mouth of Jesus. For that matter what really
goes on in the mind and heart of the United Methodist (my
denomination) that heard last weeks sermon and was invited to take a
bite to eat of the flesh and a sip of the saviors blood?
I don't mind telling you this series of sermons have been tough.
Mike in Sunshine, NC.
Mike in Sunshine, NC,
Your point intrigues me. In the church today, so many seem to have
been convinced that the belief system is adiaphora, as long as you
believe in something. "I'll believe what I want, you believe what
you want, and at the end, either we'll both be in heaven, or I will
and you won't, and it won't make any difference."
Certainly we don't want to go back to the ways of the Inquisition,
but we've forgotten how to evangelize in this politically correct
society.
Of course, Jesus did let them walk away, when they couldn't accept
the difficult teaching, but he didn't back down and say, "I didn't
really mean it."
Let us invite people into the "Cafe of Salvation," but there they
will find only one item on the menu: Jesus Christ.
Michelle
Dear Michelle,
Thanks for your comment. I have often struggled with preaching
because I end up sounding like a broken record. (For those of you
too young to remember what a record was, it was a flat vinyl disk
with sound etched into groves. When it malfunctioned it would repead
the same sound over and over again.)
In preaching I end up with Christ. I may come about it from a
gazillion (that is somewhere past millions, billions,
trillions)different ways but I end up there. I have nothing to offer
but that. It is served in the Cafe of Salvation and only comes one
way and it is not my way! God would make a lousy owner/manager at at
a modern fast food place. He would go broke doing it His way and not
our way! But I am glad He does not do things our way.
But this teaching is offensive even to the Twelve. Peter's reply is
fatalistic. "Gee, Jesus. We would go somewhere else if we thought it
would do us any good." In how many ways do people leave churches
where the gospel is truly upheld to revert to a nicer teaching?
Thanks again and keep those thougths coming. I need all the help I
can get.
Mike in Sunshine, NC.
Mike - you bring up the subject of people leaving when coming
face-to-face with the truth of the Gospel (you didn't use those
words, though). Boy, did you strike a nerve, my brother!
In my congregation it's not about sexuality, or abortion; it's about
race. A mostly older, mostly women, mostly white congregation trying
to bridge age and racial gaps (this is a growing younger African
American family community) while still trying to battle the values
of the Old South within the congregation is tough!
Given the choice of loyalties, folks will stick by their friends.
Further evidence that we have so much energy invested in
homeostasis. Where does the voice of prophesy go?
anonymous
lly in GA: You wrote.... "v. 66 - I'm not sure I understand WHICH
reason many of his disciples turned away. Because of the flesh and
blood issue, or because of no one being able to come to him except
by the father? "
I just wanted to add another possibility. Could it have been his
teaching that he was the bread - come down from heaven? His response
ties together with this, in that he is talking about returning to
where he was before.
Maybe it is as simple as it is today - people just can't buy that
Jesus really came down from heaven. Good, even amazing person? - OK.
But,God? - you must be kidding! Just a thought from, Just another
Tom
"In my congregation it's not about sexuality, or abortion; it's
about race."
And in my denomination now, with the election of a gay bishop but
also a refusal to bless same-sex relationships, it's about
sexuality...
It always seems to be about something other than the Gospel, doesn't
it?
Somebody (and I've seen this ascribed to many different church
leaders throughout history) once wisely commented: "In essentials,
unity: in inessentials, liberty: in all things, charity."
I'm not sure that Michelle is correct that "many seem to have been
convinced that the belief system is adiaphora, as long as you
believe in something..." but I think there are widely varying
understandings of what are the essentials, what are the
inessentials?
I keep wondering when, in the Anglican tradition of which I am
apart, the question of sexuality became an essential.... We have
something long-ago agreed too called the Chicago-Lambeth
Quadrilateral which says the essentials are (a) Holy Scripture as
containing all things necessary to salvation (but not as inerrant or
infallible), (b) the two Sacraments of Baptism and Holy Communion,
(c) the Apostle's and Nicene Creeds as the sufficient statements of
face, and (d) the historic episcopate locally adapted. Before that,
we had the 39 Articles of Religion. In neither the Quadrilateral nor
Articles, do I find anything about sex or sexuality.
In terms of this lesson, and in broader terms than just the current
"issue du jour" in the Anglican Communion, what are the "words of
eternal life"? What are the essentials? What is the core of the
Christian faith around which there can be liberality and
experimentation in the inessentials? That answer clearly is
different in each tradition and, it seems now as Michelle I think is
suggesting, it has become different with each individual. If that is
the case -- what has become of the community of faith?
You know what? I don't have to preach this week -- so I am not
facing answering these questions right away -- but they aren't
likely to go away, so they're still good questions.
Blessings, Eric in OH
"the Apostle's and Nicene Creeds as the sufficient statements of
face"
OOPS! "statements of FAITH" ... sheesh!
Eric in OH
The point of the Reformation was to focus the whole life of the
church on the gospel. Martin Luther understood the gospel as God's
unconditional promise made to the world in the crucifixion and
resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth. Luther also believed and taught
that the gospel message is the Church's only reason for being. The
Holy Spirit calls, gathers, enlightens, and sanctifies us so that
the Word of unconditional promise can be heard clearly in the world.
Why is it so hard for us to get the point? The reason the church
came into being was to communicate the gospel in everything that we
say and do. We were created to be the church of radical grace; that
is the only reason for our existence. We are not here to list
conditions that people must fulfill before they can receive God's
grace, we are here to live and proclaim that God receives and
redeems sinners-—not after we have stopped sinning, but while we are
yet sinners. Of course we should preach the Law, but the point of
preaching the Law is not to reform people's morals. We preach the
Law to point out to all of us that no amount of moral reform will
ever merit God's favour.
According to the Scriptures, God will go to almost any lengths to be
gracious. God chose Israel and has stuck by that choice through
thick and thin, not because Israel was any better than any other
nation, but because God is the God of unconditional promise.
Whether it be telling stories of a forgiving father or healing a
paralytic lowered through the ceiling, Jesus just couldn't keep from
offering grace. Even when it costs him his life, Jesus goes right on
forgiving sin. God in Christ scatters the Word everywhere-—even on
the most inhospitable soil—-in hopes that somehow in someone the
seed will take root and prosper. There are no conditions attached:
the father receives the son back, the seed is scattered, the
paralytic is healed.
That is grace. That is the gospel. We are crucified with Christ, and
we have been raised up in Christ.
I worry about our church when we seem to be losing sight of our
reason for being. We are always tempted by the world we live in to
tell people that if they would just work hard and think positively,
then God will surely reward them with grace. We are tempted to tell
people that if they would just get off welfare or change their
sexual orientation and "trust God," then God would change them. But
that is not now and never can be the gospel. Every time we tell
people, "If you would just change, then God will love you," we are
siding with Luther's opponents and betraying the gospel which has
been entrusted to us to proclaim.
That is not who God created us to be; that is not who the Spirit
calls us to be. We have been graciously called to be the Body of
Christ—-the crucified and resurrected Body of Christ. We have been
put into this world to be just as fanatical as Jesus was about
communicating the unconditional grace of God, even if it means that
people call us blasphemers.
Rev. Dr. Robert A. Kelly
I came across an illustration on a site called, appropriately
enough, "Sermon Illustrations," that seemed to reflect what we in
the Church have been doing when it comes to the tough issues.
An old woodsman gives this advice about catching a porcupine: "Watch
for the slapping tail as you dash in and drop a large washtub over
him. The washtub will give you something to sit on while you ponder
your next move."
I am going to call my sermon "Beyond the Washtub." We already know
the issues that are going to hurt us, because we are sitting on that
washtub trying to contain it. Yet instead of trying to manage our
tubs, we need to be following Jesus. And in following Jesus, our
flesh is nothing -- apart from serving others as Christ's flesh. And
it has to be Christ's blood flowing in our veins if we are to have
spirit and life, if his kingdom is to come "on earth as it is in
heaven."
OLAS
Rev. Dr. Robert A. Kelly wrote: “Of course we should preach the Law,
but the point of preaching the Law is not to reform people's morals.
We preach the Law to point out to all of us that no amount of moral
reform will ever merit God's favour. According to the Scriptures,
God will go to almost any lengths to be gracious. God chose Israel
and has stuck by that choice through thick and thin, not because
Israel was any better than any other nation, but because God is the
God of unconditional promise.”
And I see that clearly stated in Romans 5 passages, including this
one:
“But law came in, with the result that the trespass multiplied; but
where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, so that, just as
sin exercised dominion in death, so grace might also exercise
dominion through justification leading to eternal life through Jesus
Christ our Lord. ”
But I don’t feel we can ever preach this honestly without including
the chapter that follows it. Beginning with:
“What then are we to say? Should we continue in sin in order that
grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin go on
living in it? Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized
into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? Therefore we have
been buried with him by baptism into death, so that, just as Christ
was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, so we too might
walk in newness of life…”
“Newness of life” can bring a total change – possibly even in
people’s morals – or at least it seems Paul expected it could. Are
“the words of eternal life,” that Peter recognized in Jesus, just
heard so that life can go on as it has been - eternally?
I believe, and preach, that change happens within us because of the
love of God... not in order to gain God's love.
One of God's New Creations, Just another Tom
Hey my friends,
Have not been on for a couple weeks as I have been toting my
Daughter and son all over filling their summer. I have missed your
words of inspiration. But I am back and it is my sunday to preach.
It is also the week in which we will find out if my daughter's
treatments for her cancer have been at all affective, thus
determining weather treatment will continue. A frightfull week. But
as I read these words, I am comforted. In so many ways it is so
simple. God, through Jesus Christ, gives us GRACE!. He feeds our
hungry souls with whatever we need. We only need to see. I fight
with my fifteen year old as she is angered at the unfairness that is
her life. My response to her is that she is right and perfectly
justified in her anger. But her anger will only serve to ruin
whatever time she may have. It is true of all of us. We block our
relationship with God with all kinds of preconceived notions or
thoughts. We always feel better if we EARN it. We can't EARN God's
grace and we just don't get it. It can't be that easy. And so we
walk further from what is before us. The disciples were given an
amazing gift....the gift to realize, that while God's way doesn't
always make sense in our minds, what other choices are there? "Lord,
to whom shall we go". I may not always get it..or understand it, but
I always know, "you have the words of eternal life". What more could
I ask for?
Just some early thoughts... TAmmy in Texas
Rev. Dr. Robert A. Kelly wrote:
"We are not here to list conditions that people must fulfill before
they can receive God's grace." This is true, but I believe the issue
is that we try to say we have no need of grace because we haven't
really sinned. I believe this is why the Episcopal church and others
are struggling with the issue of sexuality. Yet is is not only an
issue of sexuality, it is an issue relating to all areas of life. We
want to know whether we require grace (forgiveness) for our actions,
or not. We don't want to need grace. We want to merit our own
salvation.
At the end, we may not be aware that certain of our own our actions
in specific areas are sinful. We will need to trust God's grace.
Michelle
Rev. Dr. Robert A Kelly, What a handle! I too am a Rev. Dr. but I
usually just go by Pastor Mack. Neither clergy or lay people are
very taken by the fact that a Rev. can earn a doctorate degree. This
may sound picky and this is meant as light hearted teasing, but a
little more grace might let you drop Rev. Dr. from your handle. TN
(sometimes rednecked) Mack
TN (sometimes rednecked) Mack
I appreciate your humility(?) Did you tell us you too have a
Doctorate? Yep, I appreciate that kind of humility. ;?) Too funny!
I am also... "The Very Right Reverend that leans more to the Left"
;?)
pulpitt in ND
Here's something from Heidi Hustead in "The Christian Century" from
2000
"If anything can help us decide to live in obedience to God’s word
it is knowing God’s heart. Our disobedience and our abstinence break
God’s heart. Perhaps knowing that might help us make better choices
today and tomorrow."
Abstinence is not always a good thing. We keep trying to starve
ourselves spiritually.
Sally in GA
This is Mike in Ohio, I am always intrigued with Jesus, just him. I
always want my folk to imagine living, yes actually living with this
guy. That is what scares us... the absolute "grace" this person, the
person of God's sending, offers us again and again and we can
continue to have as we live in actual relationships with each other,
extending the same grace he extends, day after day , year after
year, when life goes stale, even when Jesus gets boring, and his
constant emphasis is just people, loving people and STAYING with
them for the long haul, staying with each other and him for the long
haul... the long chewy haul. When we get tired of the same loaf of
bread day in and day out . . . its the disciples who wander away,
and personally, I don't know where I would go, like Peter if I
wandered away from Jesus. I like many of you have wrestled long
nights wondering where I would go. And the answer is the same, there
is no one with the words that sustain like Jesus, no one. So I
guess, I am linked to him now and forever. God Bless, all of ya...
Mike
My sermon for this is "You are what you eat" and will discuss how
much time and energy is spent on Adkins diet, South Beach diet but
we do not see the heavenly benefit as quickly as we do earthly
'quick fixes". Hope it is a help to get you going. Rev. Carol
Dear Eric,
You pondered the origin of the words "In essentials, unity: in
essentials, liberty: in all things, charity." I believe it was the
Anglican John Wesley in one of his sermons. The trick is determining
the essentials. For that I refer to his remark "Refrain from evil,
do good and attend the sacraments." The universal church is
struggling with its own moral acts. Some issues are hotter than
others. But I maintain there are few people that have any idea the
radicalness of Jesus.
Phillip Yancey seems to understand. I got turned on to his audio
tapes by a friend. I search the internet for them and keep a new one
in the car. I think he gets it and helps me to get it. "What's So
Amazing About Grace" might be a good place to start if him if you
like to read or listen to audio tapes.
This is a paragraph from sermon for August 24, 2003. I include it
because it helps me relate to the two groups that were in the one
crowd Jesus was talkiing to, "In this group are really two sets of
people listening to Jesus at this point and in English they are both
identified as disciples. The larger crowd is referred to in Greek as
the mathetes (math-ay-tes') or pupils. These are those that fancy
themselves as students of Jesus. They show up when he is healing and
teaching. A more modern description of them might be “seeker”. They
have come to hear and see but have made no formal commitment to
follow. Then there those referred to in Greek as the dodeka (do'-dek-ah)
or “The Twelve”. Dodeka literally means twelve. I like to refer to
them in terms of the old World War II movie as Jesus’ “Dirty Dozen”.
As I logged on, I was at one of those points where I was ready to
walk away. Out of all the things to fight over infant baptism in the
UMC is now being called unbiblical a significant portion of younger
adults. Apparently no pastor has taught on this subject for 20 years
and several have performed re-baptisms with no hesitation. In the
UMC that is not the way it is suppose to be. In the end, I have a
significantly Baptist crowd who has made it plain to me that I am
change my personal beliefs and that of the UMC. They are threatening
to leave. My contributions no matter how significant in other areas
of the church are all for nothing as I am deemed a heretic.
While I do not want to walk away from Jesus, I do want to walk away
from here. But hearing some of the other stories such as Tammy with
a daughter with cancer and you and your churches struggle I am
ashamed to admit that if you can handle that I think I can handle
this. My prayers are with you both.
Mike in the fog Sunshine, NC
Why when you are in the company of Jesus hard sayings seem to be
unbearable? What is it that really causes us to depart company with
our Lord?
Our culture and opinions of the status quo keep us from sitting
still, or standing firm (Paul's teaching this week), we run out the
door. After all what would we tell our friends. Jesus is such a
scandal.
tom in ga
Mike,
Thanks for the thoughts..here is one for you. Infant baptism is a
hot topic in good old Texas. In a community where there are churches
all around us with wonderful programming..and lots of cash, we
struggle as the little Lutheran church, to explain to those not
raised in the faith why we baptise infants. The answer...it is God's
grace alone that brings us to him. I was "saved" 2000 years ago as
Christ hung on the cross. I cannot earn it. Nore can I take it for
granted. We believe that God comes to us in Baptism. Not the other
way around. To demand my proclimation of faith for that is to
determine that I somehow earn his presence in my life. God is there
weather I like it or not... Stand firm on this one my friend. And
if, the church chooses otherwise, you are not a lesser man nor
minister for it. I will keep you in prayer.
Tammy in Texas
Mike in the fog Sunshine, NC,
Is it possible to stand firm, and allow a significant portion of the
congregation (crowd) to walk away, because "this teaching is
difficult"? I feel deeply concerned for you and your congregation,
but not anxious, for the Spirit is with you, and will see you
through.
Michelle
Mike - Hang in there! I've been in that situation a number of times,
and it's sticky.
Tammy - my prayers are with you and your daughter.
Sally
Tammy,
Your words reminded me of a story I heard a long time ago of a young
man who had just had his experience with Saving Grace and was going
around stopping everyone he met with the question of whether or not
they had been saved (sort of like the man with the lowered
cholesterol in the commercial). He stopped one older man who paused
for a moment and replied that he had. When the new believer pressed
him for the details, the old man replied, "I believe that it was
about 2000 years ago but I just found out about it recently."
Mike in Sunshine, NC, the "mountain Methodists" in Tennessee and
Georgia are dealing with the same issues like when one lady once
told me she wanted to be baptized "the right way." When God's
handling the salvation, I haven't seen any sign that He knows a
wrong way.
When I get down to realizing that Christ is the one holding the
Words of Life, that takes the load off of me. I only have to point
to Him, not to me. Mike in Soddy Daisy, TN (a former tarheel)
Dear Tammy in Texas,
Out of my struggles with this issue, I have put together my own
curriculum on Baptism in the UMC. It borrows heavily from our fellow
Presbyterians in the use of a video and resource books. But it might
be helpful and adaptable for you. I it four one hour session.
Session 1: This is lecture with a Microsoft PowerPoint presentation
of notes. It covers thing you need to know about baptism within our
denomination and its acceptance among other denominations. It
introduces covenant theology.
Session 2: This is a video from Third Millinium productions, "Why do
we baptize our children?" It goes indept with the 5 covenants in the
OT and then applies their similarities to the Jesus covenant.
Session 3: This is a review of our UM document "By Water and By
Spirit". I have T/F, multiple choice and fill in the blank questions
based on the document. Students are suppose to have read it before
hand but they rarely do. It is still a test that can be negotiated
as an open book test where they are free to discuss the answers
among themselves. After 1/2 hour I walk them through the answers.
Session 4: We review what we have learned and go through our
Baptismal Covenant 1 in the UM Hymnal taking time to identify what
is being said by whom, what is happening and what it means.
I have done this twice and it has been very well recieved thus far.
If you would like a copy of the notebook I can e-mail it to you but
it is a big file. Give me a holler at bagpiper@rfci.net.
Grace and peace, Mike
Father Funston I was so afraid that would happen, and I was hoping
it wouldn't happen. I so appreciate your contributions, and wouldn't
want the "evil one" to overtake the sincere contributions. I don't
care what your handle is, I just don't want you to leave like this.
However you must do what you must do. I just hope you read this, and
know that I am saddened by this
Shalom
bammamma
Someone better start remembering that what you sow so shall you
reap. This is one of those times I wish the Christian name could be
taken off and revert to my old fleshly ways.
I'm for Eric in OH. Eric, your insights and resources are a blessing
of us. Like one old preacher used to say. He never expected to get
100% approval. 90% was doing well. He figured Satan had 10% in any
crowd.
Grace and peace, Mike in Sunshine, NC
Does anyone remember a story by Fred Craddock, it may not have been
this exact passage, but there was a powerful dialogue in first
person when he said, Jesus asked, "Do you also wish to go away?" He
went on to elaborate - I believe on the times in his ministry when
he thought of joining the disgruntled crowd and going away... and
then he concluded the sermon or story with... "I don't know why, but
for some reason I've decided to stay!"...
A friend tells of a story in her home church. Her much beloved
pastor from her youth that taught her how to question the
intolerances of others, gave her reason to believe in herself, etc.
etc. and many other good qualities. He ministered to many and his
church was booming by the grace he exuded in his ministry. Years
passed, my friend grew up and moed away. Unbeknownst to her, there
was a small "crowd" that made life misserable for their pastor. So
trusting of his people, he began to doubt his own abilities, they
blindsided him and he was so distraught that not only did he leave
that church, he left the ministry. She lost track of him... as she
had gone on to college, her career and it wasn't until she was home
visiting once while she was out shopping she came upon him in a
retail store. The "twinkle of his Spirit" had left his eyes and he
was now just surviving, his countanance had fallen too... she barely
recognized him.
The road is not easy, God calls us to be faithful not perfect.
That image haunts me everytime I think about "throwing it all away"
and doing something different in the "secular" world. I will not be
bullied for my faith is too strong. Or as I like to say, "I'll give
ulcers in God's name, but I'll never 'get' any!" ;?)
With Eric in OH's recent post... it seems we could all be asked if
we will "go away" or will we stay trusting in the Spirit that makes
us one. Let's be about building up the Spirit of Christ in this
world, shall we?
As always, I appreciate the forum here,
with prayers,
pulpitt in ND
To the REAL Eric in Ohio,
I am an infrequent contributor to this forum, but I do read the
postings every week. May I tell you that I have received more
insight, more intriguing thoughts, more "springboards" from your
words than from any other source I implement in my Sunday
preparations. Not only are you knowledgable, you are inspired,
bringing great gifts to us. Please know you are appreciated by this
person who has a difficult time bringing the Scriptures to life each
and every week without some input from people like you. Preaching is
not my gift (I do far better in other areas of the ministry) - but
it is apparently yours. Thank you for what you have offered. It will
be missed. We are the poorer for your departure.
Blessings to you, Eric Funston in OH.
KyHoosierCat
To OLAS, thanks for your contribution. I've been really stumped this
week -- couldn't seem to get started, but your posting gave me a
good push. To Eric in OH, Ditto to what KyHoosierCat said. I get a
lot out of the postings of others, but when I log on I always look
for yours first! I'm not sure how often I'll return to this site
with you gone, but, since we all seem to need your help, I guess I'd
like to ask you ... "Do you (really) wish to go away???" Blessings,
RevAnitra in NY
I found a quote attributed to Mark Twain, "Most people are bothered
by those passages in Scripture which they cannot understand; but as
for me, I always notice that the passages in Scripture which trouble
me most are those which I DO understand." (Lord, I hope it is from
him!)
Regardless, we all have our favorite words and those words from God
that trouble us. The troublesome words most often strike at our
nature as sinners. These words we wish were not written since they
hit home so easily. At times, a worshiper will comment, "You were
preaching at me this morning, weren't you?" or "That really hit
home, pastor." Abiding in Christ, living in the Gospel means coming
to grips with the hard words, daily repenting, and humbly receiving
that grace in Jesus Christ. Perhaps the offense in this text is the
nearness of God to humanity in the form of Christ. That may be too
much to bear. God, far from us, distant and intangible, occasionally
speaking to us is o.k., but up close and personal??? Too much, but
oh so necessary. ARMY CH E, Heidelberg
All words after quote are mine (I think)
Some late-in-the-week thoughts here. I'm taken back to the time when
Israel was aware of polytheism - in fact, several of my good sources
have indicated that Israel, from the time of Abraham to the time of
the Prophets, believed YHWH was the God above the rest of the gods,
not necessarily the ONLY God there was. (To wit, the First
Commandment does not say 'There is no other god besides me', it says
'Thou shalt have no other god BEFORE me' which could indicate a
belief there WERE other gods, just inferior to YHWH.....Joshua
acknowledged there were other gods that people might choose to
serve, not telling them "they are figments of the imagination so
forget about them, etc.) With these other gods, there was the use of
the idol's body for nature purposes (fertility, mostly) Anyway, the
Prophetic teachings helped Israel evolve into a monotheistic people,
and by the time Jesus came into the world, they were deeply
entrenched in the ONE God theology, labeling anyone who had more
than one god a "pagan", someone to be ostricized. Now, here came
Jesus, speaking of eating his body in order to receive something and
putting himself into the position of some kind of a god. To finally
get to my point here, I'm wondering if some of these "disciples"
were thinking that Jesus was trying to take them back to the time of
their ancestors where God was not the only God, but merely one of
the pack, and Jesus was trying to put himself in that pack of
sub-gods, asking people to do things (eat my flesh) that Israel now
found repugnant to their faith in YHWH. Faith in God had come a long
way over the centuries, and now were they being asked to take great
leaps backwards? This may have been at least a part of their
thinking. I realize much of this is highly debatable, but I think it
may have some credence.
This is all in the back of my head as I attempt to complete my
sermon and bulletin for Sunday. I'm leaning toward the "Jesus had
the authority to make claims about himself" theme, but am not quite
ready to put the last period on it yet.....
KyHoosierCat
I am struck by wht happened to us who use this site, and this
particular pericope this week. One of our own had to withdraw.
Others of us pleaded with them not to withraw. I wonder were there
those who asked disciples who left Jesus if they would please stay
and not leave the fold?
Shalom
bammamma
Dear Tammy in TX
We have interesting family discussions as my parents and I are
United Methodsits (who understand and except both infant and adult
baptism), my brother and sister-in-law and their faily are Baptists
(who, of course believe in adult, believers, baptism) and my sister
and brother-in-law and their family are MS Lutherens (and of course
you understand where their comming from). How nice to see we (the
Lutheren's and United Methodists) can aggree on at least one thing,
that in baptism God comes to us, not the other way around. God's
grace is sufficient and we do not have to earn it; cannot earn it.
Blessings to all and Shalom, Rev. Nancy in NE (USA)
I am a new "post"er with a background in this highly technical
website stuff.
I can't believe that this site is using a simple "submit form" to
post comments to the website. I'm very surprised that more unwanted
"spamming" hasn't occurred.
A simple moderated bulletin board with username and password would
avoid problems like the ones which have happened this week.
P.S. I appreciate all of the thought provoking discussion...
KB in MN
KB in MN Could you email Frank Schaefer and talk to him about this?
It would help the less sophisticated website persons like me.
Shalom
bammamma
Eric in OH, In case you give this page one last, loving look,
PLEASE, don't stop coming here and participating! Remember the wheat
and the tares! Let us help sort out the true from the false. I
think, with God's help, we can get through this mess. I don't think
our anonymous plagiarizer necessarily has bad intent, or he/she
would probably at least use a screen name, as most of us do. Maybe
we can appeal to this person's good will and convince him/her to be
a little more careful of the rules, written & unwritten, we all try
to live by here. Anyone who might know Eric and be in email contact
with him, you certainly have my permission to send my remarks to
him. We have survived some pretty dicy posters on this site (I won't
mention names). We need to show love & tolerance for one another,
and help keep this site as a productive, useful place for "Desperate
Preachers." Ken in WV
I've been struggling with keeping a sabbath. Yesterday (Thursday) I
staked a claim on the day, and stayed home from the church. Only got
two phone calls. Did a lot of catching up, household projects, bills
and correspondence, picking vegetables from our exhuberant garden,
working out at the gym, reading. Yes, it was very refreshing!
But as I was talking to God through writing in my journal last
night, I realized that we all go away from God by our own passion
for accomplishing things. I didn't feel shamed by God in this
realization, I was just reminded that there is another path. Lotsa
people write that there is a God who longs for us, yearns for our
attenton and our company. Do we who have to be non-stop
accomplishers also want to go away?
kbc in sc
Thanks everybody for your contibutions. I find them most helpful in
my preperation. Tongue in cheek ... we have images of cannibalism
and body armour. Perhaps those of the early church were a little
anxious that people would take Jesus words to refer to them and
decided they needed to take some precautionary measures to prevent
them becoming a feast themselves.
Peace Gordon Castlemaine, Australia
I'll add my voice to the chorus in support for the real Eric in OH.
I long ago tired of the inevitable long first posting, although I'm
evidently not well-read enough to recognize that parts were
plagiarized. I don't know whether that writer is the same one
spam/slamming Eric, but whatever, people need to get a life and act
like (Christian) grownups.
Laura in TX
Dear Desperate Preachers - I like a few here have never posted
before yet I read nearly every week the words here. The words I
usually realize that God wanted me to see. Dear Dear Dear Eric. You
have touched my ministry in so many ways with your thought provoking
words of wisdom. You have been completely unselfish in the giving of
yourself to help those of us who sometimes struggle. Please keep on
keeping on my brother. I for one thank God for you nearly every
week.
Amy in NE
Like others, have never submitted before but having to preach almost
every single week, I have found this site a constant source of
inspiration and support. Thanks for the story of the king/two
beggars and loaves last week - and to Mike in Ohio, Dr Kelly for
this week's contributions - and for so many helpful insights in the
past from Eric of OH. Please don't spoil this site. Who knows, one
day I may have something I feel worth contributing. Frances in UK
I add my often silent voice to all the others, asking the real Eric
in OH not to abandon this wonderful site, on which he has become
such a gracious presence. I read often, post seldom, because there
are so many gifted preachers out there offering golden nuggets that
bring my sermons to life. (Responding to the discussion re giving
credit where credit is due, I do!) Thanks to all of you! I second
the motion someone made earlier of contacting Frank Schaefer to ask
about pass words and i.d.'s for posters, and just pray it can be
done in such a way that will maintain accessibility for those who
are not (yet!) members. (I am, but haven't always been.)
Like the real Eric in OH, I wish you all many blessings - Frandy
Greetings,
I am a seminary student who is just about to finish an internship
and my third year of seminary. This year has been challenging and
somewhat discouraging. BUT, it is almost gratifying to hear again
that seasoned ministers wrestle with all of the same sorts of issues
that I have found in my brief tenure as a student intern.
In the end, though ... what does it matter? In this world there will
be trouble but Jesus has overcome the world. Preach it. We need to
hear it.
Susan in Omaha
I am another one who reads DP every week and knew that the posting
to Rick in Canada to 'mind his own business' was not Eric. Whoever
it is doing this is wounded and fear-filled. I am sorry for the
whole mess and pray, Eric, that you will just come on with a new
moniker.....we will know you! As for the talk about Rev or Doc or
whatever.....be careful, all, that may or may not be real bantering
as well. Peace, DL+
To Eric in Ohio: Identity theft is THE problem of the day. Don't
leave us. Spurred some thinking. Jesus is the greatest victim of
identiy theft. We make him what we want. We project onto him our own
prejudices. We make him what we want him to be. That's why today's
(8/24) passage is so important. Jesus cut through all preconceived
ideas about him. "Eat my flesh . . . drink my blood." And so those
who wanted him to be what they wanted "drew back." Even the closest
disciples were nonplused. His words offended them. But they knew he
had the "words of eternal life." So they continued to follow him
despite their misgivings. A true act of faith: they followed despite
their difficulties with him. I ministered with mentally retarded
persons for 18 years. They didn't understand very much. But they
believed and expressed more unconditional love than "normal" people.
We want to understand and accept. Sometimes faith is a leap beyond
understanding. Many thanks to Soren Kierkegaard from the land of my
ancestors.
revhen in NY
"Blessed are you who take no offense," my spiritual director kept
telling me. And I need to hear it. Seems to fit this conversation
and the passage of discussion. Both taking offense and both leaving.
There was even discussion about another "leaving" and setting up
another chat room. Coincidence? Is not the Lord helping us to
understand how easy it is to leave, to take offense - so if one were
to stay and contribute or stay and feed on Christ (no equivocaton
intended)one would most likely have to decide that it doesn't matter
what a person says or does to me. I am dying to my self and feeding
on the life of Christ. The offense may be the realization that there
is no free lunch here anymore. It costs to be a disciple. It cost my
own wants, desires,... life. Shalom, Al in Richmond
Craddock's story begins..."We heard what Jesus said to the disciples
of old? "Do you ALSO wish to go away?" That is a heavy question - to
lift up ? but still it is there - unavoidable. It is heavy because
Jesus asks ALSO - "Do you ALSO wish to go away?" His question
clearly implies that some others have already gone. "Do you also
wish to go away?" The very fact that he asks us implies that we MAY.
- And for some of us THAT can be frightening." ... is the opening to
it...
pulpitt in ND
We have had to wrestle with rough questions at our house. "I believe
in God, but what if the others are right?" Questions of a 15 year
old facing death issues daily. I have found myself grasping for
answers and then checking my theology. So far so good. But
ultimately, there are few "answers" and only faith. Christianity is
not a faith where one should check their brain at the door. it is a
faith that is grounded in truth and so searching is not frighting to
God. But We ARE dealing with GOD. And in the end, there will be
unanswered questions. There will be the "why did you do it that
way?" sort of things. Or how do you expect me to do that? But isn't
that really what faith is about. Standing firm even when we don't
quite understand. The words of Peter are so very true..."Lord to
whom shall we go?" Whatever questions are left when we wrestle with
our faith, no one has a better answer than God in Christ Jesus. We
can look elsewhere, but I think we shall find that the answers will
always be found best in Christ. so let me share this prayer
today.."Lord Jesus, I just don't get it all. I want all the answers
and with each answer comes even greater questions. The more I know
of you, the more I realize you ARE GOD, and you are far greater than
my mind can comprehend. When I am weary and tired; When I am
frustrated and angry; when I am afraid; and above all, when I have
no answers for my child, Hold me tighter. For I have learned, there
is no greater place than in your presence...even when I am
confused...AMEN"
God be with all of you as you open yourselves to the spirit in your
ministry.
Tammy in Texas.
Thanks for sharing Tammy... I think you are correct in our
searching... and finding the presence of the Spirit...
Thank you for the prayer as well...
Blessings,
pulpitt in ND
