Scripture Text (NRSV)
John 10:22-30
10:22 At that time the festival of the Dedication took place in
Jerusalem. It was winter,
10:23 and Jesus was walking in the temple, in the portico of
Solomon.
10:24 So the Jews gathered around him and said to him, "How long
will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Messiah, tell us
plainly."
10:25 Jesus answered, "I have told you, and you do not believe. The
works that I do in my Father's name testify to me;
10:26 but you do not believe, because you do not belong to my
sheep.
10:27 My sheep hear my voice. I know them, and they follow me.
10:28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one
will snatch them out of my hand.
10:29 What my Father has given me is greater than all else, and no
one can snatch it out of the Father's hand.
10:30 The Father and I are one."
Comments:
Three times Jesus says that his sheep are secure; no one will snatch
them from Jesus' or the Father's hands. The sheep have eternal life
and so shall never perish.
The powerful Hebrew image of God as shepherd of God's people is taken
up by New Testament writers to speak of Jesus. Jesus, acting in God's
name, offers the same promise of safety in which the psalmist
rejoices. God and Jesus are one in purpose.
What is it about "Good Shepherd Sunday" that wins the hearts and
worship attendance of so many Christians? What draws so many
technological, fast-paced, nonpastoral types to shepherd and sheep
imagery, today only truly relevant to a few rural types (who may, in
truth, find the imagery to be more odoriferous than charming)? Are we
longing for an escape? Are we retreating to a Saturday afternoon movie
where we can convince ourselves, if for only a moment, that everyone
lives happily ever after after all? Is it a visit to "First Century
Land" in which we assure ourselves that there is a place where
security, lavish tables, and quiet green pastures really do exist?
Perhaps this momentary escape can indeed help us to face our lives. If
so, how does this escape prepare us for the wolves in our concrete
jungles and on our asphalt pathways?
What about the wolves? They don't go away. Where and who are our
wolves today? How do they threaten us? How does the Good Shepherd
protect us? And those wolves--are they all really wolves? Or are some
just misguided sheep (sheep in wolves' clothing?) who need to be
brought into the fold with us?
Go back to the Shepherd. Given our contemporary wolves and their
sophisticated communications media, how do we today hear the voice of
the Shepherd? In a generation of secularized sound bites in which many
of the sheep have left for "greener pastures," what does the Good
Shepherd's voice sound like? How can we learn to voice the Shepherd's
call so that those who have not yet experienced the security of the
fold can know it?
I repeatedly struggle with the image that only the sheep in "this
fold" are secure, and that all others are prey to all manner of peril.
I guess I'm a universalist at heart, because I can't get my mind going
in that direction. I believe God loves and cares for us all equally,
that God simply does not discriminate, and we're all part of his
sheepfold whether we want to be or not. Some openly recognize that
they're in the fold and are happy there; others rail against it, but
are still there anyway; others are unaware where they are, they simply
go along through life without thinking about it too much.
I guess I'm back at the Prodigal Son imagery. While the son left the
"fold", his father never really let him make the final divisive cut.
The boy still had a place at Dad's house and in Dad's heart whether he
ever went back to claim them or not. Even if the boy had continued to
live stupidly and had even died in the meantime, the father's heart
would never close down, and the beloved son would have been welcomed
or buried at home at the father's insistance. This is how I see God
with us -- all of us.
But this passage clearly separates us all into US and THEM, which I
really, really can't preach with any degree of conviction.
I'm finding this text quite challenging. So what else is new? I've
never claimed to be a gifted preacher, and it's a very good thing I
haven't.
I'll be reading with great interest as you all start to submit your
posts.
KHC
OK, it wouldn't submit and I had to click my BACK button - so this
might double post. Sorry if it does.
"For I am sure that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor
principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,
nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able
to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord." So much
for the wolves? As far as the prodigal son - What if he never came
back? Yes, certainly the Father would still love him. Jesus wept for
Jerusalem. God can not force us to accept his love. But the prodigal
would have made his own bed and would have to accept the consequences
of that kind of life, separated from the love of God not by God's
choice, but by his own choice. If we can't preach us and them, then
what is the use of believing in Christ? Why don't we just worship
Budha or Mohammed? PH in OH
I'm not so sure the Muslims worship Mohammed, or that Mohammed ever
intended that he be an object of worship. I can't speak about the
Buddah, but I think that's pretty much the case there, too. I am
willing to be corrected on this, however.
I think Jesus Christ called us into a life of service and obedience,
grounded in love - the agape love we talked about last week. He
offered himself, the Son of God, in both life and death as the perfect
example of that, and for that reason he is worthy of my worship.
That's why I worship Jesus and not any other "god" or "holy one". I
honor Jesus when my life is in line with his example, and it makes my
life one of purpose. That is the reward I receive by being a Christian
- my life has meaning beyond what I could give myself or find anywhere
else. I am less interested in some reward that comes later, being
enfolded into some eternal group that excludes anybody because they
saw life differently than I did. I tell my parishoners who ask "why
believe if you don't believe that the reward for it is heaven?" that
believing just makes the ride of life so much more meaningful and
grounded. I have a reason for living, and it is to love and serve the
Lord - and serve others in his name. That is what Christianity is all
about, IMHO. It has nothing to do with being separated out, but rather
to reach out because God overcomes all barriers through Jesus Christ.
Now, having spent so much print-space saying that, I must now say that
I don't want to separate myself out from anybody on this forum who
sees things differently than I do. I respect that others may think
Christians are a separate entity from the rest of the world. I won't
try to change your mind, mainly because I can't. Nor are you likely to
change mine. I just want to read what you have to say about the
sheepfold thing and peril for those not in it. Thank you for your
patience with me on this.
KHC
to the person who wrote: "What is it about "Good Shepherd Sunday" that
wins the hearts and worship attendance of so many Christians? What
draws so many technological, fast-paced, nonpastoral types to shepherd
and sheep imagery, today only truly relevant to a few rural types (who
may, in truth, find the imagery to be more odoriferous than
charming)?"
I wish I had a congregation that even knew what Good Shepherd Sunday
way. I resonate with the images used and love the Sunday myself but I
don't feel like my church does. I grew up in a farming community,
raised sheep as my pet and know exactly why Psalm 23 and NT uses the
image of Good Shepherd but dont feel like my church get it.
Avis in Louisville
I'm Presbyterian (USA) and have never heard of Good Shepherd Sunday.
It is not part of our calendar, but the fact that a shepherd theme
happens this week in the Common Lectionary obviously means it fits in
with somebody's calendar. I think Good Shepherd Sunday is a good
enough idea to swipe one of these years.
Ah, Louisville. My home, sweet home of carefree days of youth......I
hope it is well these days.
KHC
Dear Friends,
I have been doing some traveling this week. I have taken advantage of
the Bible on CD. I was listening to the gospel of John and this
passage in particular at the end of last week and was struck by the
presentation. There was no over dramatization on the part of the
readers as is done in some versions of dramatized versions. Still its
words sent me cringing wondering what it would have been like to be
the Pharisees, Sadducees and Priests who would have heard these words.
No wonder they were angry with Jesus! If they did have in inkling he
was the Christ then to have him pronounce these words must surely have
hurt.
The fact is we will have to deal with some "us and them" theology
here. To apply the message we may have to ask the question are we sure
we are us and not them?
Grace and peace, Mike in Sunshine
Avis said, "I wish I had a congregation that even knew what Good
Shepherd Sunday was." All I can say is "Amen!" For people who've been
in church their whole lives, it seems so odd that every year it seems
that this is the first they've heard about it. They claim to not
remember, and while there is some validity to that (if they haven't
noticed the pattern), it makes me wonder how invested any of us are in
the first place!
I agree with KHC, and would add one more facet. I, too, am
less-than-focused on going to heaven (I think that's why we have such
dead churches, really, because all we have to do is get saved and ride
out the rest of our earthly lives so we can go to heaven). Rather, my
reward is today. Not the "get rich" scheme of the so-called
"prosperity gospel," but because my life has life TODAY. It not only
has meaning but it has hope, an advocate, a friend, with whom I'm in
daily touch. How sad it is to live life "looking for love in all the
wrong places," when the best place is imminent and alive. The hope
isn't only for the end of my life, but for tomorrow, or even later on
today! It's the applying of "kairos" into the "chronos" of my life
that not only gives it substance but focuses me on something other
than the immediate problem, while enjoying the immediate celebration.
OK, it's hard to describe in a DPS post, but I just wanted to chime in
that I, too, have difficulty with the us/them, or in/out, sheep/goat
dichotomy. Perhaps the sheep hear Jesus' voice because they trust, not
because they joined the ranks or prayed a certain prayer. Last week,
there was talk aobut "you've got to believe it to see it." Well, this
is one such case.
Sally in GA
Some of the most powerful, heart-changing, life-changing sermons I've
heard didn't mention heaven or hell even once.
What they did, when I thinka bout it, is validate God's love for me
today. The sheep seek to return God's love.
Sally in GA
At least one clergy friend who grew up on a farm has trouble with the
use of sheep to refer to Christians since he knows a sheep's odor and
actions to be somewhat less attractive that positive.
But John A. Sanford in his commentary on the book of John called
"Mystical Christianity", sees the use of sheep as refering to our own
instincts, rather than individual persons. The instincts that come
from (I would call it) prevenient grace enters by the gate, where are
egoentric instincts climb over the fence to try and get into the fold.
Using his commentary as a guide in my reading of the gospel has been
very helpful.
Shalom
bammamma
"My sheep hear my voice. I know them, and they follow me." I'm leaning
toward a sermon on how faith comes to us as a gift from God and the
ability to even hear Jesus' voice is also a gift that comes only
because he first knows us. Without having first been chosen to hear
the voice of our shepherd, we are deaf to it. We only have faith
because God has faithfully chosen us.
Scrambled wanderings which may work themselves into a sermon!
PB in PA
(Before we begin, we should acknowledge that John used the word "Jews"
in the fourth Gospel for the religious leaders, not the peasants.
Interesting how the leaders were always used to represent the whole
group; having a few rotten leaders and it ruined the whole group's
representation... Also, fest of Dedication here is the Hanukkah).
So they came and ask Jesus about his identity as "the Messiah". What
type of "Messiah" were they talking about? More likely a political
saviour than anything else (since even Jesus' own disciples had that
mis-understanding, it is safe to assume that these outsiders miss the
point too).
Understand their misconception, Jesus could not give them a yes or now
answer, but instead he pointed them to the analogy of the good
shepherd (which start from verse 1). Jesus clearly stated that they
did not belong to him (he may sound harsh, but the receipients may be
glad since they might not want to be identified on his side either).
In v.25-26, it seems like faith must precede understanding. Without
believe in Him, we will not be able to understand his Word and his
Work, and we do not belong to Him.
v.27: The people who have faith in Him, "hear His voice" (not seeing
Him); and He know them (even though they may not know Him); and they
will follow Him (evidence of hearing His voice).
v.28 are the assurance to the faithful, that we will escape damnation
and enter into eternal life; and no one can change that fact. v.29
reiterrated that fact with the Mighty God's authority.
The above two verses could open up a flood gate of Predestination vs.
Free-will debate again, so proceed at your own risk <grin>.
Finally, Jesus stated for the record that He is one with God the
Father, which steered the Jews immediately to stone Him (v.31-33)
This passage is loaded with theological doctrines, and may be it would
be a good opportunity for me to affirm the essential beliefs for
myself. That I must believe in order to understand; that hearing must
be expressed in following; that I may not fully know Him, but I can
rest in the assurance that He knows me; that nothing can separate
myself from the love and the care of my God, including my own self, or
even the Evil One; and that Jesus is God in the flesh, and by knowing
Him we will know the One Who Sent Him.
May I have the right understanding of who you are, Lord.
Coho, Midway City.
I finished my initial observation first before reading your concerns
about "us/them" issues. I too, struggled with this a while back. In my
heart of heart, I hope for a universalistic resolution, for it is hard
to swallow a Monster God. But God is God, and I am not - let alone
trying to "swallow" anything, especially in the presence of various
"us/them", "heaven/hell" passages in the Bible.
So I take comfort in this "wimpy" position: Since we can only be
certain by the things He let us know, let our lives responded well to
Him in these certain-areas, so that we don't have to be worry about
the uncertain-areas. Therefore, let us concentrate on building people
up in Christ for that's the certain way for them to be included in
God's flock.
Having said that, here are some propositions I had in the
"uncertain-areas":
1) If God is good and righteous, then whatever He does will result in
absolute fairness. No one will be able to make excuses in regard to
His judgment (Paul dealt with this at length in early Romans,
especially 3:3-4)
2) Paul suggested that our God's given conscience could be used for
that judgment (Rom. 1:18-20), or our own ethical living or the law
(Rom. 2:9-16). Peter said that Christ "went and preached to the
'spirits in prison' who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently
in the days of Noah" (1 Peter 3:19b-20a), which some took it as
salvation is available even from hell. CS Lewis suggested that after
death, God will allow for people who have yet to know Jesus a chance
to make decision. Another scholar suggested that God do not judge us
based on the milestone we attained in our journey of faith, but the
trajectory of that journey (toward God or not). Bonhoeffer (I think)
did not believe in universal salvation, but believe in universal
opportunity to accept salvation.
3) What I am saying is this: If the limited human's wisdom could
"suggest multiple options for God" to get Him out of the bad press,
wouldn't God himself (who created human intelligence) be able to come
up with something else way beyond our understanding to accomplish His
will?
4) However, the essential will remain: That no matter how a person
attain eternal life (by the "certain" way of "accepting Christ", or by
various "uncertain" propositions above); it will have to be done
through Jesus, for "Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no
other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved".
Eternal separation from God is a real possibility enough for Jesus to
die on the cross: "if there is any other way - please let this cup
passed from me". If there is any better other option, the Father
should have taken it already.
6) In conclusion, I will hope for the best (universal salvation), but
since that option was a bit "uncertain", I then will have to work with
what I can be more "certain", namely the disciple-making work of
building up people who know God and obey God.
I also respect the view you have too. I want to repeat what KHC said
that, "I won't try to change your mind, mainly because I can't. Nor
are you likely to change mine. I just want to read what you have to
say..."
In essentials: Unity; in non-essentials: Liberty; in all: Love!
Coho, Midway City
KHC:
Re: Good Shepherd Sunday
I don't think the Sunday has an official designation as "Good Shepherd
Sunday" but for many the 4th Sunday of Easter has come to be called
that because the Gospel reading in all 3 years of the lectionary comes
from the 10th chapter of John (Year A - Jn 10.1-10, Jesus the gate for
the sheep; Year B - Jn 10.11-18, Jesus the good shepherd; Year C - Jn
10.22-30, Jesus sheep hear his voice and follow him) and the Psalm for
the day is the 23rd in each of the three years.
One pastor has written: "'Good Shepherd Sunday' recalls a beloved
image of Jesus, even among contemporary Christians who have never seen
a shepherd ... or a sheep. It is a favorite visual metaphor from
antiquity. Surviving mosaics and frescoes from the first three
centuries of Christian history feature Christ most ofen as a beardless
'good shepherd.' The 23rd Psalm might be sung today by choir and
people in Joseph Gelineau's lovely setting.
"After the reading of the Gospel, but before the sermon, a child from
the congregation, with significant skills in public reading, might
recite William Blake's brief nd beautiful poem, "The Lamb," which
witnesses winsomely to Christ. It might be an even more endearing
moment if the child were to carry in the arms a favorite stuffed
animal, a woolly lamb."
Tom in Ontario
Thank you for the information. I had never heard the 4th Sunday of
Easter called "Good Shepherd Sunday", even though I had noticed we
always talked about the Good Shepherd soon after Easter. The things
you learn from DPS! I appreciate your time to educate me on this.
KHC
Season: Winter.
Place: Portico of Solomon, Jerusalem.
Time: Festival of the Dedication
Problem: End the suspense drama. Are you the messiah or not?
Response: Check out my actions as the testimony.
My sheep identity: Hear my voice. I know them. They follow me. I give
them eternal life. Sheep snatchers cant get them.
Point: You seen me, you seen Dad.
hmmmmm.... big names in such a small piece: Jerusalem, temple,
Solomon, Festival of Dedication, Messiah, etc.... still working
Story teller
Season: Winter.
Place: Portico of Solomon, Jerusalem.
Time: Festival of the Dedication
Problem: End the suspense drama. Are you the messiah or not?
Response: Check out my actions as the testimony.
My sheep identity: Hear my voice. I know them. They follow me. I give
them eternal life. Sheep snatchers cant get them.
Point: You seen me, you seen Dad.
hmmmmm.... big names in such a small piece: Jerusalem, temple,
Solomon, Festival of Dedication, Messiah, etc.... still working
Story teller
belonging.
Is it okay to allow other people to belong elsewhere? Perhaps
elsewhere where they feel more welcome, at home, etc. Perhaps a
critical element of hospitality is allowing other folks to say "thanks
but no thanks" and not being offended they have chosen another fold.
just a thought. dont take it too seriously. its just a thought.
storyteller
In Mark 6:11 Jesus gave instructions to the apostles, "Any place that
does not receive you or listen to you, as you go out from there, shake
the dust off the soles of your feet for a testimony against them."
It is a part of being a good shepard that some sheep will not be a
part of the flock. It may or may not be because of us. In some
instances it will go unknown to us. But it is a truth of delivering a
message, any message. There are those who hear and will not listen.
Those instances most clearly call for us to emulate the Christ. To
stand and deliver a consistent message, not one of harshness, but
consistent compassion. If you choose to believe, believe and emulate
the Christ. If you choose not to believe, we will love you, we will
forgive you, but please reconsider. Feed/Tend the flock.
Welcome any newcomers, welcome the oldcomers, welcome the CEOs.
Rejoice when they return, pray when they do not.
I would hope that all come to Christ. I do not believe in
predestination, because I think we have the choice to listen or not. I
do not proselytize, but I will disuss. I must believe that Christ is
the only way to come to the Father, but it is not the hope of heaven
that drives me. It is my gratiude for the blessing He has given. It is
my priveledge to serve the Living God.
John in IL
I'm glad other people are concerned about the us and them issue of
this text. The only good news here seems to be that those who follow
Jesus are safe and those who haven't heard the voice yet are left out
in the cold. And that dosen't seem like very good news for those who
aren't in the fold yet. Not good news for the "unconverted". It sounds
more like a threat for them. (For fellow Lutherans, it sounds like the
Law and not the Gospel -- yet it almost looks like Gospel.)
Frankly, it dosen't even sound very Jesusy. What about the shepherd
that looks for the one lost sheep, or the widow for the lost coin?
Dosen't this text contradict those?
I have no conclusions yet. jw in tx
I'm told by a classmate who went to the Holy Land that many different
shepherds brought thier sheep to water them and he saw the problem
getting them seperated from one another. To his amazement.... every
sheep knew his own shepherd's voice and followed him as he walked away
from the water. Now that image has always stuck with me. On the 4th
Sunday of Easter I tell the story he told me and then add
simply.....we follow the Good Shepherd Jesus and we need to know his
voice and listen to his Word. Its a short homily but I think it
strikes home for the folks to listen to God's Word and to know what
Jesus says to us as we pray.
Ed in Iowa
Coho, Midway City: Excellent 6-point on is/them.
I had her people describe themselves or others as "Universalists" but
had never had one explain their rationale until about a month or so
ago during a class. The instructor, whom I will clal "Don," confessed
to having Universalist tendacies and explained it very succinctly: "I
have a difficult time believing that a loving Creator could be happy
knowing that a part of His Creation is beyond redemption." Don
explained the party in the New Heaven and New Earth as an ongoing
party where those "outside" of the Redeemed being given an ongoing
invitation to repent ... not just to escape "the fire," if you will,
but an earnest repentence in which they acknowledged Jesus as Lord and
Savior of all mankind. Interesting paralells ... Grace and peace, Buzz
It seems to me that we are jumping into a premature conclusion in
assuming the "them" sheep are damned or hellbent or something nasty
like that. The text does not read that way for me. We only hear of the
prize the Jesus sheep will get: eternal life.
Could be that we are programmed into incorrectly imagining that if one
group gets eternal life, the "other group" will not be getting any
eternal life. Our concern about "what we get" as some indication of
"what they wont get" could be misleading.
I want to preach about What Jesus Promises those who follow him. I
want to stay away from getting into a theology of my-way-or-no-way.
still struggling Storyteller
Coho: You wrote that you "hope for the best," and then you (wish I
could underline that) declare what the best is. We need His best plan;
oursbeing designed by us, will be flawed by our desires which change.
I've never been uncomfortable, or felt less than loving by not being a
universalist. And it never made my God small. In this, as in so many
other areas, while I desire to understand, I acknowledge that His ways
and thoughts are higher than mine. lkinhc
Greetings in the name of our Good Shepherd, I do so enjoy 'listening'
to all of you. Especially on this topic. I have come to the conclusion
that my ministry is as under-shepherd to the Master Shepherd. With
that in mind, I believe I will preach on the 23rd Psalm, with trips
into John for emphasis.
I too have 'universalist leanings' (please don't tell my mother...)
and have difficulty with the us vs.them aspect of John's passage. I
much prefer us + them (a both/and solution). As shepherd, don't I have
the responsibility to care for all sheep in my pasture? If someone
else's sheep have wandered into my pasture, do I let the wolves eat
them while protecting my own? I cannot live that way. As shepherd, I
give myself to them all.
C2 in WS
KHC: While I have only read posts up to your contribution on the 25th,
I wanted to respond as well to what seems like a division of the
sheep. The difference I see in what Jesus is saying is that "my sheep
HEAR my voice. I know them and they follow me." The sheep that hear
and follow are the sheep of the fold that Jesus is speaking of here.
As you say there are many gradations of that; perhaps these Jews Jesus
is speaking to are in the midst of those gradations.
In another scripture verse, Jesus tells us that there are other sheep
who are not yet of the fold. I believe he is speaking there of those
to whom you speak in your post. Even in the midst of the "fold" are
those sheep who hear the words of God and interpret them in different
ways. I guess what I am speaking of here is the "us" and "them"
mentality which seems to be so prevelant in my area.
Have not gotten to pondering these texts much; but will be following
the conversation avidly. May God bless our work this week. ~ pbetty in
NY
pbetty,
Verse 26 says, "you do not believe because you do not belong to my
sheep", a clear division between sheep in Jesus' flock and sheep
outside of Jesus' flock. This is my main problem, since I'm of the
opinion that we're ALL in God's fold.
So, maybe there are many corners to God's sheepyard. We're in the one
with Jesus, the Jews are in the one with Moses (or Abraham or Elijah
or David), and the Muslims are in the one with Abraham and Mohammed.
We all mingle around together, but as a previous poster suggested,
when it's time to listen to the voice of our own shepherd, we go with
the one we know and trust. For you and for me, that would be Jesus
Christ, the Son of God.
I'm not trying to trivilize here, but am sincerely trying to reconcile
my beliefs with this text - and several other texts, too. Your posts
have been most interesting to read through.
KHC
God alone is the true shepherd (Ps 23 and Ezekiel 34). When Jesus says
that he is the true shepherd, the question arises whether Jesus claims
himself to be God (or in the nature of God). Jesus answers this by
saying plainly, "The Father and I are one." If God is for us who can
be against us and therefore we are safe in the hands of Jesus. This is
the reason why the risen Lord showed his hands to his disciples! It is
a way of saying that the risen Jesus can protect any one. (Selva
Rathinam)
KHC I have this vision of dying and going to "The New Jerusalem",
being met by Mary Magdalene, Judas and a whole other disciples through
the ages who beckon to me to follow. "Sh," they whisper. We go down a
long valley pathway. It is very narrow with a lot of doors on either
side. As we walk along, on occasion, someone peeks out of a door and
steps in line with the rest of us. One door, looks so inviting, and I
love the laughter behind that door. It even says "Open hearts, Open
minds, Open doors, on the outside. Oh do I want to go in that door. It
seems so-o-o familiar and inviting. But I hear a voice ahead that
though vague is so familiar, and so I keep going down that corridor.
Finally the group, the disciples, and those of us who have followed
them open onto a place where..., Well I have no human words to
describe it. One of the disciples then smiles, and says, "God will be
so glad when the rest of the folks accept the fact they aren't the
only ones up here, and then all will be in heaven". With that I smile,
throw my arm around my worse enemy in human life, and wandered after
Jesus.
Shalom
bammammma
Part of my problem with the gospel of John much of my life (prior to
finally getting some education on it!) has been the tone that we can
so easily find in it, the black/white, good/evil dichotomy. But one
way for me to reconcile that is to read these things as descriptive,
rather than prescriptive. That still leaves you with a bunch of folks
left in the dark, of course, but it doesn't include such a smug sound
to it.
The other thing that I finally came to back in seminary days (may be
heresy, but it's how it works for me) is to concentrate on Christ as
the second person of the Trinity, the Logos, the ordering principle of
the whole world. From that perspective, everything from the atom to
the human heart was created to be aligned with God through Christ. For
me, that second-person principle can be present in places where Jesus'
name is not uttered, and in fact when other names are uttered instead.
I don't say this to try to convince people of other faiths that they
are really Christians at heart. And I know it still leaves the
question of needing to actually claim the name of Jesus. But if I
believe that the whole world was created through him, and that life
indeed will have the final victory, even over our worst attempts at
derailing it, then I have to believe that Christ is in all things,
working for redemption, especially wherever love gives its life for
the sake of others. And that gives me comfort. To find God, people
still have to align themselves with who Jesus was and with the power
of God that was/is at work in him, but I guess there's a place in my
head that says there are different ways of making that choice.
Who knows if this holds water? I'll jump on the bandwagon of not
trying to change anybody's mind--just throwing in my two cents.
Laura in TX.
Anyone else having a problem with "decision theology?" I keep fighting
the "we" make the decision about God. I believe that God has made the
decision about us and all we do is in response to His love. Passages
like these sound very "decision oriented." How can I get across that
faith is something that "claims us?" Do we decide to follow or if we
are His is His the voice we hear? Help,I get confused. NDHillbilly
To all the brothers and sisters who are struggling with the "problem"
of "us" and "them," and the question of whether a loving God would
keep some out of heaven: Assuming you believe that the Word of God is
inerrant, what do you do with John 14:6 ("I am the way, the truth, and
the life. No one come to the Father but through me.")?
PD in CA
C2 in WS,
You asked, "If someone else's sheep have wandered into my pasture, do
I let the wolves eat them while protecting my own?" According to I
Peter 5, we are all shepherds of the "Great shepherd; therefore if you
see a sleep wandered into your pasture, your responsibility would be
taking care of His sheep.
lkinhc, you were right: I shouldhave written, "I hope for the easiest
way" instead. Sometimes we think what best in actuality would be what
laziest instead.
Coho, Midway City.
The inerrancy of the Bible is not something I assume. We Presbyterians
declare the Scripture to be the authorative Word of God, but are under
no mandate to accept it literally or as inerrant; there is a large
difference between the two. The Presbyterian Church calls itself the
Reformed Church, always reforming, and so we move into new
understandings of the Scripture when the Spirit of God calls us there.
That's one of the reasons the Presbyterians no longer teach
predestination. Well, some do, but relatively few of us. It's also the
reason we allow for such division of views among the membership.
Whatever the issue du jour, Presbyterians will likely be divided on
it, and with no fear of repercussions or talk of heresy. I think there
are several denominations that allow for freedom of conscience and
freedom of belief, and would permit not accepting the Bible as
inerrant.
Bammamama, thanks for the story. Loved the "won't they be surprised!"
theme!
KHC
Potpourri:
A good illustration about following Jesus' voice, from a sermon by
Mark Roper: Once a friend of mine went swimming in a large lake at
dusk. As he was paddling at a leisurely pace about 100 yards offshore,
a freak evening fog rolled in across the water. Suddenly he could see
nothing: no horizon, no landmarks, no objects or lights on shore.
Because the fog diffused all light, he could not even discern which
direction the sun was setting.
For thirty minutes my friend splashed around in panic. He would start
off in one direction, lose confidence, and turn ninety degrees to the
right. Or left--it made no difference which way he turned. He would
stop and float, trying to conserve energy, and concentrate on
breathing slower. Then he would strike out again, blindly, of course,
for he had lost all orientation. He was utterly lost until, finally,
he heard voices calling from shore and was able to guide himself by
the sounds. -
There is some evidence that the "Good Shepherd" figure in Jewish
tradition was associated with the Messiah. So, even before he says
"The Father and I are one," Jesus has in essence proclaimed himself
Messiah and stirred up the Temple authorities.
Speaking of Blake's poem, there is a lovely setting of "The Lamb" by
John Rutter. I believe it's a part of his "Mass of the Children." It's
a part of the "Agnus Dei" section of that work.
Grace & Peace, Ken in WV
NDHillbilly,
Your problem is my problem with this. This is decision theology. It is
not about the pre-existing grace and love of God (which is what Good
Shepherd Sunday should be about.)
In this text, Jesus is talking to the religious authorities who are
trying to trick him and kill him (they try to have him stoned in the
next few verses.) To anyone else, Jesus would have said that God has
made a choice for us first -- but he wants these people to think about
it more.
I think that the problem we're finding is with the lectionary choice
here. This is supposed to be "good shepherd" Sunday -- a day about the
peace and Goodness of God's love (not a day of decisions, which might
be appropriate antoher day.)
Seems like the lectionary people just grabbed a text that mentions
sheep and shepherds, but it is really more like one of those where he
calls them a "brood of vipers" (I know that's in Matthew).
It's not an appropriate text. And once I get over that, I think I'll
be able to come up with a sermon. jw in tx
KHC - I know this space is supposed to be for discussion of the
appointed lesson, but your comments about Scripture intrigue me:
"...always reforming, and so we move into new understandings of the
Scripture when the Spirit of God calls us there."
So, help me understand something. How do you really know if it's the
Spirit of God calling you there? If one does not accept that all
Scripture is inspired by God and inerrant, how do you know what IS and
what ISN'T? And how can you be sure? Even more so, how can YOU be sure
of YOUR salvation? Seems to me such a position lends itself to an
awful lot of uncertainty, something Satan would have a wonderful time
exploiting.
PD in CA
I'm at a loss how to describe it any more clearly - The Scripture is
authoritative, meaning it is the basis for my understanding of God.
Yet the Spirit continues to reveal God's involvement with us, and new
revelations are not only possible, they are expected. Just as I am
able to reconcile God in the OT with God in the NT as the same God
with a new message, so I am able to understand that God can continue
to bring new messages post-1st century. My criteria for believing
whether it's the work of the Spirit or my personal preferences is
simple: if it shows the love of God, it is most likely of God. If it
somehow depletes God or God's people, it is not of God. Sometimes
we're wrong in our assessments, but the Spirit is a pretty good guide,
I think.
OK. I have veered us off-text long enough, and I apologize profusely
to everyone. I now encourage us to return to the text and the
discussion of Jesus/voice/sheep/hearing/not my sheep/eternal
life/snatching/not snatching........
KHC
Laura in TX,
what you believe does make perfect sense:
We are to live by what WORDS Christ spoke: John 13:35 and John 6:63,
and NOT just by his name, in order to not be decieved. Matthew 24:4-5.
So everyone everywhere who believes in Love actually believes in
Christ, just as all xtians who beleive in Love also believe in Buddha
and Moses and Gandhi and etc!
Universal Love
Can someone with better Greek skills than I tell me whether verse 26
has any ambiguity? Could it be "You do not belong to my sheep because
you do not hear my voice"? I'm not trying to make the text say
something it doesn't, I just want to be clear about what it actually
does say! As I recall my Johannine lit course (almost 10 years ago
now), that tended to be the slant much of John's telling of the
stories tended to take: there was a clear us/them, but those who were
part of the "them" were there by their own choice/stubbornness/hardeness
of heart.
Heather in Sharon
Earlier (vs. 16) Jesus said, "I have other sheep that do not belong to
this fold." It's not as though we human beings can easily identify who
belongs to Jesus. And it's not up to the rest of us to decide which
groups of sheep are acceptable, who is hearing and following Jesus'
voice. The point is, if we hear and if we follow, we belong, no matter
what.
Maybe somebody from another religion may hear Jesus' voice but not
recognize it as such. The contrast is between those who hear Jesus'
voice and follow, and those who take up stones to kill him, who
actively reject him. This is not talking about those who faithfully
and respectfully follow another religion and are concerned with the
truth. Jesus is not tied to our religion. Jesus is free to speak to
anyone he chooses, in whatever way he chooses.
Let's talk about something else. DGinNYC
The real question is not who's in and who's out, but where is Jesus
leading us and are we willing to follow? Those are the most difficult
questions to wrestle with because they demand a personal response.
DGinNYC
Thanks to DG in NYC for getting at what I was trying to say earlier--
For me this text has already been a real comfort personally this week.
My father has been very sick for months, I'm getting ready
(**supposed** to be getting ready) for a new appointment in June, and
I've been nearly obsessed with immature imaginary conversations with
the couple of parishioners who have not accepted me or my stab at
leadership in this place, conversations that finally set the record
straight, once and for all.
Finally last night as I lay in bed, frustrated with myself for all the
stupid things I do under stress, I remembered that I can indeed hear
Jesus' voice, and at the risk of sounding sappy, it's a sweet voice.
And the word that no one, not even the Council of Idiots in my own
head, can snatch me away from his care, felt like such a gift, a
relief. There is indeed somebody bigger than me, someone else who
justifies me so I don't have to. All that's necessary is for me to
hear his voice and do my best to follow it.
Don't know quite how to preach from this without being so
self-revelatory, but that's what's working in my head right now. Maybe
the sermon will head toward helping folks discover or think about how
they hear the voice of the Good Shepherd. (As someone said, this
really isn't the right text for that, but it is in there.)
Please forgive my self-revelation in your midst!
Laura in TX
Okay, I'm a lay person preparing a sermon for a small church in
Australia, oh and I'm 25, so go easy on me. With that qualification
out of the way...
What makes someone a disciple if not their response to hearing Jesus'
call? Are all people disciples? Clearly not. Jesus says "I have told
you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name
testify to me; but you do not believe, because you do not belong to my
sheep. My sheep hear my voice. I know them, and they follow me."
(sorry for the extended quote)
Whomever sees and hears God when they hear and see Jesus belong to the
fold. However, I would hazard a guess that each of us on a Christian
journey knows that to walk with Jesus is not to say that we will
always walk in righteousness, never fall, fail or choose to deny
Jesus.
God's grace thankfully allows that the 'gate' will never be closed,
but I have experienced times when, even in my 'Christian-ness', I fail
to hear Jesus' voice.
It is tough, but when we love things that stand in opposition to the
God we meet in Jesus we are not hearing Jesus call. Not that we can't
or won't, but we certainly aren't.
Ezekiel's prophecy calls to account a people who have lost sight of
God's sovereignty over their lives. Similarly, Jesus challenges us to
hear his voice and believe that his works witness to the glory of God.
Gee, that was longer than I meant it to be. Thanks for some good
leads.
PAN
